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  1. #916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Your post shows exactly what I'm talking about.

    Heroes don't need to be purely altruistic. Heroes are at their best when they feel tempted, yet choose to do the right thing. They are at their worst when they fail to do so. But heroes at their worst can be great stories too!

    The point is that those stories will only be great if the hero is an actual hero. If they were tempted, if they made a mistake, if they chose to do the wrong thing in a moment of selfishness or fragility. An anti-hero doesn't care, or cares but shrugs it off. A hero does care, they feel bad about themselves, they don't give themselves excuses or if they do, they eventually realise it and apologise and try to redeem themselves.

    Heroes can and should be interesting. But it's like both writers can fans can't really see it that way anymore.
    Although I see what you mean,I feel like if the hero label is always contingent on remorse and struggling with making a wrong choice or a choice that doesn't sit well with one's conscience after the fact or even before one decides,to me it seems disingenuous. I see no problem having a tough situation that requires navigating through making difficult choices, but for me a hero has to make the right call or at least accept they are making the right call in that moment. Than simply hiding behind 'I'm somber over a few beers for a week now coz I screwed up making a poor choice x-days ago'. I feel the writers are pulling a fast one on readers always obfuscating bad choices with dramatic aftermath.

  2. #917
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Although I see what you mean,I feel like if the hero label is always contingent on remorse and struggling with making a wrong choice or a choice that doesn't sit well with one's conscience after the fact or even before one decides,to me it seems disingenuous. I see no problem having a tough situation that requires navigating through making difficult choices, but for me a hero has to make the right call or at least accept they are making the right call in that moment. Than simply hiding behind 'I'm somber over a few beers for a week now coz I screwed up making a poor choice x-days ago'. I feel the writers are pulling a fast one on readers always obfuscating bad choices with dramatic aftermath.
    Well... that's not what I meant at all.

  3. #918
    Invincible Member juan678's Avatar
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    line it is drawn

  4. #919
    Mighty Member Su_Whisterfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    It all boils down to the idea that heroes can't be interesting, isn't it?

    That's why writers aren't writing *any* of those characters as heroes anymore. All of them are anti-heroes and fans like it because they share this belief.

    Heroes are my favourites, but I appreciate anti-heroes too. I think they enhance and challenge both the heroes *and* the stories.

    Again: that episode illustrate it very well. There's a really tough choice to be made and different characters choose different things. You can understand all of them and none of them is portrayed as perfect. It's awesome and it proves the story only benefits when the characters are distinct, have different levels of sense of morality, ethics, duty, selfishness etc...

    I think you could have written it as Jean and Lorna having a telepathic conversation at the gala, where she’s reluctant and Jean encourages her friend, without ever giving rise to coercion issues. It was completely unnecessary.

  5. #920
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Su_Whisterfield View Post
    I think you could have written it as Jean and Lorna having a telepathic conversation at the gala, where she’s reluctant and Jean encourages her friend, without ever giving rise to coercion issues. It was completely unnecessary.
    Yes! Just a friend encouraging another. I'd love that. I miss the X-Men just being good friends to one another so much...

    It would've been much better for Lorna too, because it would have been her decision to face whatever fear she had that made her talk herself out of it.

  6. #921
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post


    line it is drawn
    That's pretty cool, Juan!

    Thanks for sharing. :)

  7. #922
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Su_Whisterfield View Post
    I think you could have written it as Jean and Lorna having a telepathic conversation at the gala, where she’s reluctant and Jean encourages her friend, without ever giving rise to coercion issues. It was completely unnecessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yes! Just a friend encouraging another. I'd love that. I miss the X-Men just being good friends to one another so much...

    It would've been much better for Lorna too, because it would have been her decision to face whatever fear she had that made her talk herself out of it.
    Agreed completely if the scene was just made in the spirit of old friends reconeting, of Lorna showing her pitch before changing her mind and Jean encorauging her, no telepathy needed, the scene and story would have worked a lot better imo.
    "To the X-men then, who donīt die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

    Magneto: The master of magnetism Appreciation 2022
    Polaris: The Mistress of Magnetism Appreciation 2022
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  8. #923
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    I feel some are missing the point that that entire nomination-vote-results was done in a matter of minutes. With Jean orchestration the entire thing...she would not have the time to focus on Lorna to have a nice conversation about what she really wanted in order to change he mind. What she did was the most expedient, considering...

    I read Lorna's switch a split second moment of indecision...nothing more. And while it speaks to something deeper, that's all it was...a nano-second of self doubt which Jean picked up.
    She clearly wanted to be an X-Man which speaks to her desire to be seen as a hero doing good...which I think is meaningful enough without the existential deep dive into the angst and fears of her past.

    As I said before, sometimes the most important decisions we make for ourselves going forward can have nothing/very little to do with our pasts.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 11-30-2021 at 08:31 AM.

  9. #924
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    I don't see why Jean couldn't have said telepathically to everyone "One moment, please". And tried to talk to Lorna in private. A quick encouragement could be all she needed. But all right, let's say for some reason that was not possible, I don't see how it makes it right to telepathically force someone to say what they wouldn't otherwise.

    Again: I understand it was done with the belief it would be the best thing for Lorna. I'm not arguing Jean's good intentions.

    I just don't see how good intentions are supposed to change the nature of the action. Taking someone's free will away - and it's clear that was the case here - is wrong. Period. It was not done for Jean's personal gain or to harm Lorna in any way. But it's still wrong. And there was no urgent need to justify that.

  10. #925
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    She didn't take her free will away.
    Taking her free will away would have been the opposite, if Lorna initially didn't want the nomination but Jean put her in the running, anyway.

    Jean gave her the chance to do/be exactly what she wanted...an X-Man.

  11. #926
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    She didn't take her free will away.
    Taking her free will away would have been the opposite, if Lorna initially didn't want the nomination but Jean put her in the running, anyway.

    Jean gave her the chance to do/be exactly what she wanted...an X-Man.
    The chance to do something isn't "given", when the alternative not to do so is taken off the table.

    Lorna could not have chosen *not* to say what she end up saying.

    Where is the free will?

  12. #927
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Where is the free will?
    Lorna chose to accept the position on the new team, which Jean did not force her to do. Even after the election, she could have turned down the offer, making it clear that she didn’t, in fact, want to be a part of the team.

  13. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Lorna chose to accept the position on the new team, which Jean did not force her to do. Even after the election, she could have turned down the offer, making it clear that she didn’t, in fact, want to be a part of the team.
    Sure. But I'm not arguing that Jean took her free will forever and ever. I'm arguing that Jean took her free will at the time of the voting.

  14. #929
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Sure. But I'm not arguing that Jean took her free will forever and ever. I'm arguing that Jean took her free will at the time of the voting.
    That is a valid point, though the overemphasis on said point gives the false impression that the only reason Lorna is on the team is because Jean forced her to be. I know it is not your intention to make it seem as if Jean did this, but it is certainly what others have implied.

  15. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    That is a valid point, though the overemphasis on said point gives the false impression that the only reason Lorna is on the team is because Jean forced her to be. I know it is not your intention to make it seem as if Jean did this, but it is certainly what others have implied.
    Haters will be haters, Mercury. And haters read whatever they want to read on the panels.

    There's nothing there that gives the slight impression that Jean altered the minds of the people who voted for Lorna in order for them to vote for her. They voted for Lorna because the message "just pick me" was enough for them. They *wanted* her to be on the team.

    And again: I'm *not* arguing that Jean didn't have the best intentions at heart.

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