Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

I really like your take on things. Really well explained and thought out.

Thanks. The thing about Morrison's run is that it's not presented through the eyes of an impartial narrator. So you can't simply take everything the characters are saying literally. What they are saying is being filtered by their emotions and confusion.

Scott is a rational man and he's wondering if what he had with Jean was just a silly teenage love that they both tried to keep going until they suddenly outgrewn it? I'm serious: in no point in time he even mentions raising a child together. Again: this is a rational man. What rational man would consider a silly teenager love would survive 13 years raising a child under the conditions they did, *all the while* still being deeply in love?

The only explanation for this is that the trauma was so deep that - more than losing the connection to his own feelings due to the depression - he lost his ability to be rational when it came to the thing Apocalypse certainly attacked the most (the most meaningful relationship of his life - what gave him strength to resist). And that says a *lot*.

[PlacidMule]

Thanks. The thing about Morrison's run is that it's not presented through the eyes of an impartial narrator. So you can't simply take everything the characters are saying literally. What they are saying is being filtered by their emotions and confusion.

Scott is a rational man and he's wondering if what he had with Jean was just a silly teenage love that they both tried to keep going until they suddenly outgrewn it? I'm serious: in no point in time he even mentions raising a child together. Again: this is a rational man. What rational man would consider a silly teenager love would survive 13 years raising a child under the conditions they did, *all the while* still being deeply in love?

The only explanation for this is that the trauma was so deep that - more than losing the connection to his own feelings due to the depression - he lost his ability to be rational when it came to the thing Apocalypse certainly attacked the most (the most meaningful relationship of his life - what gave him strength to resist). And that says a *lot*.

It does. Trauma causes a deep change in brain chemistry and function. While in the acute stage of PTSD you do not see the world as it is. This happens even to seasoned soldiers, like Scott. The rational mind is gone and the world becomes that broken interpretation of itself. At the time he was in the acute state of a trauma he had never experience before, namely the possession by an age old entity with completely different moral and though bases. He cam back form that changed while everyone else was their status quo. I experience it in my civilian life even now having transitioned to being a civilian 17 years ago.

Of course, and Morrison writing of their relationship was out of character as well.
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[Grinning Soul]

It does. Trauma causes a deep change in brain chemistry and function. While in the acute stage of PTSD you do not see the world as it is. This happens even to seasoned soldiers, like Scott. The rational mind is gone and the world becomes that broken interpretation of itself. At the time he was in the acute state of a trauma he had never experience before, namely the possession by an age old entity with completely different moral and though bases. He cam back form that changed while everyone else was their status quo. I experience it in my civilian life even now having transitioned to being a civilian 17 years ago.

Of course, and Morrison writing of their relationship was out of character as well.
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Thanks for sharing your experience, PlacidMule. I really do appreciate it.

When Jean finds out about the affair, she tells exactly that to Emma: that Scott was dealing with a traumatic experience like nothing he'd faced before. She was tired and certainly affected negatively about his behaviour, but I think this is human. It's a really difficult position for anyone to be as well.

But she certainly wasn't over him. As she's dying near the Sun, she asks Logan about Scott (since Logan had been the last one who talked to him). I think her "indifference" was just a defence mechanism and the effect of being drunk on her power because of the Phoenix.

And Scott had done the right thing: he'd asked for help. He just asked the wrong person.

[PlacidMule]

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From X-men Season One

[PlacidMule]

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And another.

[Grinning Soul]

Thanks for sharing, Placid Mule. :)

That's not part of the 616 continuity, though, right? But even if it isn't, I think 616 should have felt something like that for her Slim indeed.

Something from the ol' 616, then (X-Men #2).

Please, remember this story was written in the 60s and don't get upset with the damsel in distress tone or the "little lady". But look at what actually happens: Mr. Summers, always worrier, has always been protective of her. So cute. :)

Bonus points for those who spot his calling her "Jeanie". :D



It must have caused an impression, because next issue she can't keep her hands to herself.



She was always sweet when she interacted with everyone, but even sweeter towards her sweetheart. :)

Even in the behaved 60s, those two couldn't keep their hands off each other. :D

[Hizashi]

I get what you mean, Hizashi, it's like the rapport, right? Too many writers writing it without some defined guidelines (and often using telepathic intrusions as shameful plot devises). As readers, all we can do is try to come up with an explanation that could work. Or just decide is not worth our time.

The problem about the latter, for me, is that it keeps annoying me, so I try to come with up some headcannon that makes it easier to accept it.

An analogy that works for me is that telepathy/empathy is like hearing, not sight. Meaning, if you don’t want to see, you can close your eyes. But you can’t close your ears.

So, with that premise in mind, I think about telepathy/empathy as an antenna instead of ears, you can't really stop capturing things. You can only dial to different frequencies. The problem is that the more powerful you are, the more range you antena has, the more minds you capture, the harder it is to dial to a frequency no one is using… So, at best, you can try to find some frequency that is mostly static noise, but if someone is really screaming, if someone moves to that frequency, you’d feel it, even if you can’t understand their words because you’re not tuned in well.

Please, don’t understand this as if I’m not trying to convince you. I’m just sharing one of the ideas that help me dealing with my own annoyance.


EDIT: When I'm writing, I rarely use these plot devices. My telepaths are good at their shielding skills!
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PS: Even if you’re just lurking around and popping in on occasion, it makes me happy. I always enjoy chatting with you guys.

Sorry for the late reply, work is kicking my butt...

Yeah, I see what you mean, if telepathy functioned that way in MU I'd be more accepting of certain contrivances. That being said, I still think a skilled telepath like Jean or Emma or Xavier would have trained themselves past that, what I think would be an initial, phase.

I'm in full agreement about shielding skills, that just makes sense to me.

And thanks, I appreciate it.

[Hizashi]

Thanks for sharing your experience, PlacidMule. I really do appreciate it.

When Jean finds out about the affair, she tells exactly that to Emma: that Scott was dealing with a traumatic experience like nothing he'd faced before. She was tired and certainly affected negatively about his behaviour, but I think this is human. It's a really difficult position for anyone to be as well.

But she certainly wasn't over him. As she's dying near the Sun, she asks Logan about Scott (since Logan had been the last one who talked to him). I think her "indifference" was just a defence mechanism and the effect of being drunk on her power because of the Phoenix.

And Scott had done the right thing: he'd asked for help. He just asked the wrong person.

It seems so easy to forget how it was Scott and Jean's marriage that was falling apart, they were both suffering. Even I would forget this when the discussion of the affair would get heated, and I'd be trying to put Scott's obviously wrong decision in context.

[Lucas 35]

[Grinning Soul]

Sorry for the late reply, work is kicking my butt...

Please, don't worry. I understand that life gets in the way.

I hope work gives you a break soon, though. :)

Yeah, I see what you mean, if telepathy functioned that way in MU I'd be more accepting of certain contrivances. That being said, I still think a skilled telepath like Jean or Emma or Xavier would have trained themselves past that, what I think would be an initial, phase.

I'm in full agreement about shielding skills, that just makes sense to me.

And thanks, I appreciate it.

That's the thing... it's just badly written. Sometimes telepaths are ridiculously clueless about what is going on around them as well. Writers don't really define telepathic powers well or pay attention to what it means to have a telepath around. They just use the power at their convenience. And, yes, it really annoys me too!

This is how I think telepathic shields would work:

So if telepaths are like antennas who are always capturing emotions and feelings from people around them and telepathy is like a sense that you can't shut down easily (unlike sight: you close your eyes and you can keep them closed easily), they have to *actively* block it.

And blocking it 100% of the input all the time is probably very tiring for them. So I think they block as much as needed instead. If everyone is calm around them, they can keep the effort at 20% without getting anything from anybody, but as soon as someone starts to feel stronger emotions, they feel the push against those shields. It's like hearing someone speaking but their voice is too low/distorted for you to understand the words, you know? But you can tell the voice is suddenly there. If they all of a sudden someone screams at you, then you also understand what they're saying.

Would that make sense to you?

Because I see things this way, I like to separate telepathy from empathy. And I believe that empathy is harder to shield against because it deals with emotions which are naturally more fickle and intense.

[Grinning Soul]

It seems so easy to forget how it was Scott and Jean's marriage that was falling apart, they were both suffering. Even I would forget this when the discussion of the affair would get heated, and I'd be trying to put Scott's obviously wrong decision in context.

That’s exactly the problem: most people don’t get the context. They read Morrison’s run in isolation and they take what the characters are saying literally. And on top of that, they cherry-pick what the characters are saying.

The context is that, before Apocalypse’s possession, Scott and Jean were happy together, the happiest they could be, considering the crazy lives they live.

This is how they come back from their 12-year honeymoon in the future, raising a kid under those horrible circumstances:

[Grinning Soul]

And, even thought it’s seen through Scott’s point of view, this happens to both of them. This is how they are feeling at the very first issue of The Twelve story that ends with Scott being possessed.

[Grinning Soul]

Neither of them want to be there. They want to start their family together.

This is not a couple who have outgrown one another. This is a couple who loves and is committed to one another, who wants to take a break from their lives so they can go through the experience of being parents again.

[Grinning Soul]

The only thing that happens between this and Morrison’s run (when it comes to their relationship) is Apocalypse’s possession and the trauma it inflicted on Scott.

An example of how the trauma screws him up.

Before Apocalypse:



After Apocalypse:



So... he talks about how he followed Nathan as if he's saying he believes he was a good father. But he's scared he'll be a bad father if he ever becomes a father again? You see... That's the trauma talking.

Also interesting to notice: Scott characterised going to future as if he followed his son there, instead of being yanked by Rachel. It's a similar distortion of reality that he makes (on Morrison's run) when he characterises that he won over Apocalypse, when he was rescued. Sure, he stepped up to the challenge and did a wonderful job raising Nathan. Sure, he resisted Apocalypse long enough for Nathan and Jean to rescue him. No question about it. But this another instance in which we can see he's *not* being his rational, precise self.

And you can see the trauma mirrored on the paradoxical/non-sensical things he says during Morrison’s run itself (if you’re not cherry-picking it) about his relationship with Jean. He’s really, really not okay.

We tend to dismiss the depths of the trauma because we take Emma’s opinion of it as the truth. But not only she has her own agenda, she is never actually shown trying to understand what is going on with him.

Really. We *never* see Scott actually talking about the experience of being merged with Apocalypse in details.

[Grinning Soul]

What about Jean?

During Morrison’s run itself we don’t see much of her perspective, but consider that she also wanted to have stayed in Alaska, taking a break so they could start their family… And then add this: