Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

"He came out of retirement for you. For all of you! Gave up his chance, our chance, at a normal life -- a normal future -- and you just threw it all away..."

Poor woman... :(


After everything, when she finally gets her husband back, she just wants their relationship to get back to normal. But he’s acting very distant and she can’t find a way to help him. It’s very difficult for her because even though she understands he’s dealing with a deep trauma, she’s not a robot. She loves that man. She was never possessed by Apocalyse herself, she’s not confused, she is not wondering if he’s just her teenage love. Imagine what it was like to her, wanting to be close to him and listening to his saying that nothing feels right anymore, including their relationship.

It’s hard for her not to take things personally when they are so personal. It’s hard to be so selfless all the time so you resist creating a lot of negative, ugly emotions. I mean, how unrealistic is it to expect it from her when you try to put yourself on her shoes?

She was devastated, she was withering. And that certainly didn’t help him either.

It was really a vicious cycle. But it had nothing to do with their love for each other. Lack of love wasn't the cause for their problems. The trauma was.

[Grinning Soul]

Lucas 35, thanks so much for sharing! This has become one of my favourite kisses!

I love how Jean destroys a sentinel, walks out of the fire, ignores both Logan and Emma and kisses her husband again! And what a kiss! Jeeez… did it suddenly get much warmer in the room? :D

Seriously: can an atom fit between those two when kiss like that? The body expression on both of them! Gawd! :D

I’d like to point out: that foot is not popping because of romance! :D

[Neocide]

Glad this thread is so active. Love these two, sometimes feels hard to be a fan of them here though lol.

[Grinning Soul]

Glad this thread is so active. Love these two, sometimes feels hard to be a fan of them here though lol.

Yes, it's great. They're both a big part of the other's history, but it's hard to even comment about their relationshp in other places because fans of both characters can be very negative about it, mostly motivated by old hatred created by strong echo chambers that were re-inforced over the last 20 years..

Really. It's been a good 20 years since they were together and well and this Krakoan era isn't exactly helping either.

So, yes, it's good to have a space where we can both gush at how special they are, but also dispel some of those misconceptions without being attacked. :)

I'm a huge fan of both characters independently. I think they're tridimensional and complex. And I love they're both great heroes. They're special to me and I want them to be happy as if they were real people and were my dear friends. :)

I truly believe they're perfect for each other, even though their relationship is far from being perfect. I think they modulate each other and they become better persons because of the other. And that alone makes their relationship really interesting. Visually, they're also ridiculously iconic because of their personalities.

[PlacidMule]

Lucas 35, thanks so much for sharing! This has become one of my favourite kisses!

I love how Jean destroys a sentinel, walks out of the fire, ignores both Logan and Emma and kisses her husband again! And what a kiss! Jeeez… did it suddenly get much warmer in the room?

Seriously: can an atom fit between those two when kiss like that? The body expression on both of them! Gawd!

I’d like to point out: that foot is not popping because of romance!

Agreed. I literally contacted Rosenberg on Twitter and thanked him for writing that moment.

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed. I literally contacted Rosenberg on Twitter and thanked him for writing that moment.

You did? :D

Did he reply???

There was that moment on her ressurection story (repeated on his story, plus his eagerness to go to her -- that brat Kid Cable!) that was beautiful, intense and super sad. But that kiss at the end of Uncanny was really like: after 20 years! Finally! Fireworks! They're both alive now! It's happening! Yay!:D

And then Krakoa... *sigh*...

[Lucyinthesky]

Okay, so this is answering to Lucyinthesky’s previous post.

Being attracted to other people is normal. You don’t lose your hormones just because you’re in a committed relationship. Being confused about this attraction is a different discussion.
Prior to Morrison's run, the only other time that happened to Scott was with Psylocke. And that was yet another moment of emotional instability that had nothing to do with his feelings for Jean, actually. He was having trouble dealing with his sending Nathan to the future. He wasn’t opening up about it and it was eating at him. And Jean was there, trying to get him to talk to her, but tired of having to break his fortress down yet again.

Agreed I think Scott sometimes is so used to be around telepaths that he expects them to get his emotions and motives right away without any explanation and sometimes that can be trouble because no matter how understanding that person/lover/friend is of him he needs to be upfront about his feelings and his take on situations.

[QUOTE]This happens in X-Men #20, actually, so it’s out of the chronological order. It’s just for the sentiment: “(...)Because suddenly she knows... knows with a stunning certainty that the thoughts, loves and drives of the man she loves are suddenly unknown to her. But should she be surprised? Hasn't it always been a struggle for the two of them? Haven't they always been forced to chip away at the emotional barriers that life as mutants, as x-men, has built around them? Maybe it's just that her arms are weary. The chisel worn. The hammer lost its bite. (...)”

So he’s feeling horrible about sending baby Nathan to the future and somewhat confused because of his attraction to her, but then comes the mess with Strife and it really screws up with him. And that’s when he got really lost. Look at how the increasingly emotional distress of the experience with Strife affects him:
Interesting to notice: there was also an instance where a villain (like Casandra Nova does 2 or 3 times), invaded Scott’s mind and played with his insecurities as well. This happens on X-Men #19, the issue before he leaves.

"And best of all -- Scott Summers. What misery you've endured! That pain -- what tremendous guilt! You dream of Jean Grey but can you provide for her? Help make her whole? -- When you have so sadly failed in providing for yourself, for Madelyine and most of all your lost son, Nathan".

Agreed

When Psylocke hits on him really aggressively, he really can’t deal with it the pressure anymore and he leaves.
Regardless of his attraction and confusion, he’s not exactly a willing participant, right?

Agreed I think he only felt attracted to Betsy but knew it would go nowhere imo his mind was in a different place that during Morrison´s run.

So he goes to Alaska and he spends 3 weeks with his grandparents and he talks about Nathan and his life. A little insight of how he’s feeling:
- Scott: My son, Nathan, was infected by a strange virus. He was dying. In order to save his life, I allowed him to be taken to a future where I was assured he'd be cured. In retrospect, I guess the choice was simple -- see him die in my arms, or let him go so that he might have a chance. So I let him go -- I watched him disappear in a white glow of light -- and I lost him."

- Deborah: And you don't know -- you'll never know -- if it was the right choice or not?

- Scott: No... I found out... Heaven help me, I found out. I think that by saving Nathan's life... I ruined it. I think my choice turned my son into a madman -- a demagogue from the future who called himself Strife. A man who came back in time to ge revenge on the father whose choice destroyed his sanity. But I'm not supposed to say that. Jean and I-- the professor and my other friends -- we don't talk about it-- as if by shutting it al out, we'll make it all go away... But it doesn't... it doesn't ever go away! The truth is... I saw my own son as an adult... and because of the choice I made, my son has grown up to become everything I've fought my entire life to stop! (...)

I think Scott had no choice at the moment of sending Nathan to the future and his adventures in time travel and the oportunity to raise him there helped him to give up part of that guilt but as a father that will always eat at him, that he didn´t get to raise his Son in a normal envoirment. It´s no wonder Stryfe brings all of this feelings strongly.

So the distance and the talk gives him the perspective that he needs. When he comes back, we get that scene in the airport that I posted earlier and Jean and Scott commit to talk to each other and there isn’t a sign of confusion (about their relationship) on him anymore.
So basically, that is really another instance - just like on Morrison’s run - that shows that Scott only doubts his love for Jean when he’s not emotionally stable and he pushes her away.
(We can expand on that if any of you would be interested).
They’re very different people and their relationship is certainly difficult because of that. But when they manage to communicate, they find each other again.

Agreed

In time: he’s not the only one who does that. To be fair, Jean sometimes is the one who can’t talk to him either about what is going on with her.
That alone shows you that their relationship was *never* perfect. It’s challenging and complex and it’s one of the reasons why I love it.
Now, after that commitment they made to each other (the airport/bedroom scenes I posted earlier), I’d think they - especially Scott, since he was the one who identified it so well - had learnt better. Morrison decided to go on this route again, so I have to believe that Scott couldn’t make himself talk to Jean because he was really devastated by the experience with Apocalypse.

I think Morrison tackled this same story but made it go the a darker place emotionally for them so them both were not comunicating the same way they used to.

Just before that, they were doing fine. They were in Alaska, taking a break, trying to start their family and they didn’t want to go back to the X-Men (this happens on the very first issue of The Twelve storyline, than ends with him being possessed). The only thing that happened in between being in love trying to get pregnant and being utterly unable to communicate was the possession, so… that is really the only factor here.
Everything else that led to their problems springs from that.

Agreed

[Lucyinthesky]

She died in the Moon using that uniform. It represents her choice to live as a human instead of a goddess. Now she lives on the Moon because nothing of that bothers her anymore. She’s over the Phoenix and all that mess. That’s it?
Cool, girl. But if you need to be wearing a symbol of this disposition, maybe you’re not that over any of that?
Okay, why am I doing this again? Why am I thinking?

Actually I think it´s very possible Hickman sees it this way, if anything part of his run seems to be about the character confronting their bad experiences, focusing on getting them right this time and doing their own share of denial when neccesary to make it work.

I think she could look even better with different colours but if she has to stay with the green, so be it.
Jean made that horrible yellow uniform of the 90s work. The girl is gifted indeed.

I also love her gold and white uniform so it´s really just a matter of if it works for her or not for me.

Honestly? I find most of those mutants from Arakko insufferable, but Eric has been insufferable too. So it could be fun to see this relationship exactly because of that!

Lol I found it funy because she was no wrong, Krakoa IS a one year old baby goverment run mostly by people who don´t have much experience running a nation so I get her point while Arrakko is a country with hundred of years of story with a formal goverment in charge, still Krakoa has the edge because they don´t have the tools to understand the new world they came back for and Isca is quite aware of this imo maybe that´s why she didn´t close completely their link to Krakoa, she´s just going to take her time knowing if she can trust them to help them learn to live in the new earth and imo that´s where the relationship could take off.

Erik in Krakoa´s era is a missed experience for me but as a fan I am used to it, there are times where I am like "Look at my boy, I am so proud of him" and "WTH are you thinking, you pompus man" to "Look what they have done to my boy " but I am a Magneto fan so I am quite used to it XD

Well, Jean only gets to raise the baby after Madelyine dies, so Scott is a widower by then. Before that, Scott isn’t raising him either. But anyway, after Inferno, Jean most certainly went full into the mother role. That was still part of the X-Factor period and it goes on until the very end, when Scott sends Nathan to the future. At this point, Jean is really raising Nathan as her baby already. It predates the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix.

Oh ok I didn´t read that part so for me it was during Cyclops and phoenix story, thanks for explaining it to me.

Not trying to challenging you here, okay? Just really curious: in what ways did Scott need more agency inside their relationship?
This is really weird to me because I often see Jean’s fans saying the same thing. But I can’t find any factual evidence that they weren’t actually were pretty equal. They often talked about what they wanted to do and decided together. Kinda like re-starting the X-Men now.

I am talking from Morrison´s pov here, I remember reading in one of his interviews about how Scott needed to be more edgy and independent from Jean and Charles because so far it looked like he was just following one or the other, I don´t think this is quite true but after Onslaught´s comment about Scott not having an individual thought from adolescence this pov became canon for some fans and Morrison was looking to change this perception it seems.

I get what you mean, but I don’t think it was neither of that.
Being attracted to other people is normal. You don’t lose your hormones just because you’re in a committed relationship. Being confused about this attraction is a different discussion.
And I’ll post about it bellow, since I’ll add some images too.

Agreed

Yeah, but that opportunity was pretty much wasted at this point, unfortunately.

Who knows imo comics can be quite cyclical an oportunity can came back everytime a new writer comes so I am optimistic on that side.

[loke13]

You did?

Did he reply???

There was that moment on her ressurection story (repeated on his story, plus his eagerness to go to her -- that brat Kid Cable!) that was beautiful, intense and super sad. But that kiss at the end of Uncanny was really like: after 20 years! Finally! Fireworks! They're both alive now! It's happening! Yay!

And then Krakoa... *sigh*...

I'm confused they're still very much in a relationship on Krakoa or do you mean you want more passionate moments between the two?

[TheDeadSpace]

I'm confused they're still very much in a relationship on Krakoa or do you mean you want more passionate moments between the two?

I think for some of us, Krakoa is less than ideal. If it was exclusively Scott and Jean then it would be another story.

All things considered, they really haven't had that many if any intimate or meaningful conversations with each other, as of now. In fact, many were wondering if they were even together up until XoS. That's not a good thing.

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed I think Scott sometimes is so used to be around telepaths that he expects them to get his emotions and motives right away without any explanation and sometimes that can be trouble because no matter how understanding that person/lover/friend is of him he needs to be upfront about his feelings and his take on situations.

Well, at the time that story is set, it seems that it is a bigger problem and it’s not just Scott who has it, but most X-Men.

I think in a weird way it happens because they all love each other too much. They understand all of them are always under a lot of pressure and stress all the time and they don’t want to burden their friends with their personal problems.

Here’s what I think is really interesting: Scott is naturally one of the most guarded persons. But he was also the one who identified the problem and wanted to address it.

After three weeks wondering if her relationship was over, Jean is happy to just be happy that he’s back. She’s more emotional, she just leaps in as if she’s saying: “who cares, honey, I’m happy you’re back!”

And he’s the one saying: “No, this is important. We have to talk. Really, talk: no mutant gimmicks”. Because he understood that, in the long run, this is what is important. And when he tells her that, she immediately understands and agrees to it.

Agreed I think he only felt attracted to Betsy but knew it would go nowhere imo his mind was in a different place that during Morrison´s run.

It was a different place indeed. Scott was dealing with a huge trauma in Morrison’s run.

The comparison wasn’t about how bad it was. It was about the fact that Scott only gets confused about Jean when he’s emotionally unstable. Now, we could try to think about why that happens. I think it’s some deep, screwed-up process that has to do with fear of abandonment, fear of loss, control-freak meltdown and some other stuff that is really not conscious.

I don’t know if talking about that would be interesting to anyone. And it’s also a bit more speculative (based on canon stuff, but still).

I think Scott had no choice at the moment of sending Nathan to the future and his adventures in time travel and the oportunity to raise him there helped him to give up part of that guilt but as a father that will always eat at him, that he didn´t get to raise his Son in a normal envoirment. It´s no wonder Stryfe brings all of this feelings strongly.

The choice was to let his baby die in his arms, so of course he wouldn’t make this choice. The problem is that he didn’t know yet that he would be given the opportunity the raise Nathan and that Nathan wasn’t Strife. That’s what shook him: he thought Strife was the son he sent to the future and who became that way because he grew up hating his father.

I think Morrison tackled this same story but made it go the a darker place emotionally for them so them both were not comunicating the same way they used to.

Yes, Morrison came up with a reason for it to be very difficult for them to communicate. And all their problems come from that. At its core, it was really just a matter of not being able to communicate. Of course, this is a problem for any couple and, at some point, it becomes really big.

I also love her gold and white uniform so it´s really just a matter of if it works for her or not for me.

She survived her 90s uniform and made *that* iconic. Anything woks on her. I really don’t worry about that. :D

Lol I found it funy because she was no wrong, Krakoa IS a one year old baby goverment run mostly by people who don´t have much experience running a nation so I get her point while Arrakko is a country with hundred of years of story with a formal goverment in charge, still Krakoa has the edge because they don´t have the tools to understand the new world they came back for and Isca is quite aware of this imo maybe that´s why she didn´t close completely their link to Krakoa, she´s just going to take her time knowing if she can trust them to help them learn to live in the new earth and imo that´s where the relationship could take off.

Look, when both parties are insufferable, it can make good entertainment. So I’m all in. :D

Erik in Krakoa´s era is a missed experience for me but as a fan I am used to it, there are times where I am like "Look at my boy, I am so proud of him" :D and "WTH are you thinking, you pompus man":mad: to "Look what they have done to my boy :(" but I am a Magneto fan so I am quite used to it XD

The things those writers do our hearts, right? To love comics is to suffer, I suppose. :D

Oh ok I didn´t read that part so for me it was during Cyclops and phoenix story, thanks for explaining it to me.

Jean really adopts Nathan after Inferno already. Both baby and she connect back at the orphanage, when they first met. And that was before Jean gets Madelyne’s memories, so her feelings for the baby are really her feelings. Louise wrote a real bond between mother and son. The writers that follow just decided to forget how deeply that woman loved that child from the moment they met.

I am talking from Morrison´s pov here, I remember reading in one of his interviews about how Scott needed to be more edgy and independent from Jean and Charles because so far it looked like he was just following one or the other

I very rarely take the writer’s point of view under consideration. I mostly look at what it is written. That’s how we judge the work from all other kinds of writers out there. Personally, I don’t think comic book writers should get special treatment.

I don´t think this is quite true but after Onslaught´s comment about Scott not having an individual thought from adolescence this pov became canon for some fans and Morrison was looking to change this perception it seems.

That is so reductive of the character, though. Of any character in that position.

So if you choose to follow someone’s leadership because you trust them, that means you disconnect your brain and don’t have individual thoughts anymore? Same if you love someone?

I call it BS. Especially when it comes to Scott Summers, the man who is often accused of thinking too much. This is just another echo chamber based on personal feelings.

Who knows imo comics can be quite cyclical an oportunity can came back everytime a new writer comes so I am optimistic on that side.

True. I meant the opportunity was lost for now.

[Grinning Soul]

I'm confused they're still very much in a relationship on Krakoa or do you mean you want more passionate moments between the two?

I think for some of us, Krakoa is less than ideal. If it was exclusively Scott and Jean then it would be another story.

All things considered, they really haven't had that many if any intimate or meaningful conversations with each other, as of now. In fact, many were wondering if they were even together up until XoS. That's not a good thing.

Two things:

1) The poliamory makes no sense to me when it comes to those two characters. Nothing against poliamory relationships I just don’t think everyone can be comfortable in one, let alone happy. It’s not a matter of morality, so I don’t see how the idea of “mutants upgraded morality” should apply. Considering what was canon for both Scott and Jean, I don't think they can be happy in an open marriage and since the writers didn’t really show us how they got there, it’s hard for me to buy it.

I’m still hoping it’s happening because there's something actually wrong with Krakoa, the resurrection protocols or whatever bug Kurt had in his mind is also in Jean and Scott’s minds.

2) If they are in this kind of relationship and they are indeed okay with it, I’d also like to see them being more intimate, emotionally and physically (nothing against bath tubs - but I’m actually talking about touching each other in a loving way, like they used to). Some of that old, crazy passion wouldn’t hurt either.

[Gray Lensman]

Actually I think it´s very possible Hickman sees it this way, if anything part of his run seems to be about the character confronting their bad experiences, focusing on getting them right this time and doing their own share of denial when neccesary to make it work.



I also love her gold and white uniform so it´s really just a matter of if it works for her or not for me.



Lol I found it funy because she was no wrong, Krakoa IS a one year old baby goverment run mostly by people who don´t have much experience running a nation so I get her point while Arrakko is a country with hundred of years of story with a formal goverment in charge, still Krakoa has the edge because they don´t have the tools to understand the new world they came back for and Isca is quite aware of this imo maybe that´s why she didn´t close completely their link to Krakoa, she´s just going to take her time knowing if she can trust them to help them learn to live in the new earth and imo that´s where the relationship could take off.

Erik in Krakoa´s era is a missed experience for me but as a fan I am used to it, there are times where I am like "Look at my boy, I am so proud of him" and "WTH are you thinking, you pompus man" to "Look what they have done to my boy " but I am a Magneto fan so I am quite used to it XD




Oh ok I didn´t read that part so for me it was during Cyclops and phoenix story, thanks for explaining it to me.




I am talking from Morrison´s pov here, I remember reading in one of his interviews about how Scott needed to be more edgy and independent from Jean and Charles because so far it looked like he was just following one or the other, I don´t think this is quite true but after Onslaught´s comment about Scott not having an individual thought from adolescence this pov became canon for some fans and Morrison was looking to change this perception it seems.



Agreed



Who knows imo comics can be quite cyclical an oportunity can came back everytime a new writer comes so I am optimistic on that side.

Scott does often fall back into being the field leader for someone else's vision. Being uncomfortable with running the while show is part of who Scott is, even more so when the show is a nation. Scott is too good of a person, and good people often make bad kings (or Presidents) because the needs of a nation often require more questionable methods. Scott was able to pull it off at need, but it took a toll on him. He's meant to lead, not to rule. Those aren't the same thing.

But why would anyone take Onslaught's word as gospel? Villains LIE, it's part of who they are, and even when they tell the truth, it often has the worst and most hyperbolic spin possible. The villain is at best an unreliable narrator, and often much worse then that.

[PlacidMule]

You did?

Did he reply???

There was that moment on her ressurection story (repeated on his story, plus his eagerness to go to her -- that brat Kid Cable!) that was beautiful, intense and super sad. But that kiss at the end of Uncanny was really like: after 20 years! Finally! Fireworks! They're both alive now! It's happening! Yay!

And then Krakoa... *sigh*...

He did. He thanked me for saying so!

I'm still not sold on Krakoa either. Especially since the only books that show her not with Scott are X-force and Wolverine (I'm disappointed because I actually really like the writer, especially his Green Arrow), which almost read in regards to Jean's 'ships as creepy fan fiction that isn't reflected elsewhere except in data pages, which both Hickman and Jordan White have alluded to in interviews may not necessarily be the gospel but sometimes are there for 'head cannon". It is almost as if the concession was made just for those books.

[Grinning Soul]

He did. He thanked me for saying so!

I'm still not sold on Krakoa either. Especially since the only books that show her not with Scott are X-force and Wolverine (I'm disappointed because I actually really like the writer, especially his Green Arrow), which almost read in regards to Jean's 'ships as creepy fan fiction that isn't reflected elsewhere except in data pages, which both Hickman and Jordan White have alluded to in interviews may not necessarily be the gospel but sometimes are there for 'head cannon". It is almost as if the concession was made just for those books.

Nice that he replied. :)

--

I know... It's not making anyone look good here. It's making Jean look especially bad because, so far, she's the only one who appears to have a lover who isn't her spouse. And why her husband is so okay with it is another point that just... *sigh* The problem is no one will remember that. They'll just blame Jean and hate her and call her names.

Seriously, X-Office, was it necessary? What is the point of any of that?