A more realistic Superman in a more realistic World: Superman 10,000

[Tom Kalbfus]

I'm not saying that, just because the science doesn't really work, these stories shouldn't exist. I'm quite happy with the fantasy worlds that false science has produced. I'm just saying that, if the argument is lessening powers will make the characters more realistic, that doesn't wash. There are other reasons for lessening powers, but let's not kid ourselves that it adds realism.

having superman push the Moon around so he can eclipse Nuclearman so he loses his powers is a bit of strain on credulity, don't you think? It is much harder to believe than than he can lift 500 tons. There is a big difference between the Moon and 500 tons! Are you saying that if he can lift 500 tons, he might as well push the Moon around as well?

[lotchj]

having superman push the Moon around so he can eclipse Nuclearman so he loses his powers is a bit of strain on credulity, don't you think? It is much harder to believe than than he can lift 500 tons. There is a big difference between the Moon and 500 tons! Are you saying that if he can lift 500 tons, he might as well push the Moon around as well?

Who cares!!, if it a strain on credulity. It's a comic book about a super being. I enjoy it when Superman does stuff like that. I think that's great!!

[DochaDocha]

Guess I'll take another opportunity to say I want to keep Superman as powerful as the story allows. What I would do, however, is make him more susceptible to real-world physics. This puts actual limitations on the character without having to nerf the character. Also, superhero stories are pretty bad at applying real-world physics, and by doing so in a Superman story (particularly for movies), it makes the story stand out more.

So, Superman isn't going to be lifting up a building, not because he lacks the strength, but because a man his size isn't going to be able to pick up a building without putting so much stress on one point that the building would collapse. Green Lantern could make a construct to do it, but Superman alone can't. Superman also can't buzz through a crowded city at supersonic speeds because that would cause all sorts of destruction. Flash could do it because the Speed Force would lend him that flexibility, but Superman can't.

So, you have a Superman who's still powerful, but can't pull of many of the specific feats that go hand-in-hand with comic book superheroes. One could argue that downside is that you're removing a lot of tropes from the comic book superhero genre of stories, but I say it means you have to be more inventive and do different action sequences altogether. There are literally dozens of multi-million dollar Hollywood movies of super-strong guys smashing things left and right, might as well take a different take.

[NaVi]

ww fans want him to be stronger, batman fans want him to be batgod, superman fans want him to have 1000 weaknesses and weaker, superman fans are the rarest in the world. Instead of weakening Superman, you would have to let him be superman, strong, skillful, smart, fighting for his beliefs, but big time. Superman fights Mongul, Clark and Lois fight dictators on earth. A weaker superman does not mean more realism or more sales, the superman of the cinema is an insect compared to the comic, he does not do very well, the best selling comic / manga in the world is one piece and is not exactly realistic.

[lotchj]

Guess I'll take another opportunity to say I want to keep Superman as powerful as the story allows. What I would do, however, is make him more susceptible to real-world physics. This puts actual limitations on the character without having to nerf the character. Also, superhero stories are pretty bad at applying real-world physics, and by doing so in a Superman story (particularly for movies), it makes the story stand out more.

So, Superman isn't going to be lifting up a building, not because he lacks the strength, but because a man his size isn't going to be able to pick up a building without putting so much stress on one point that the building would collapse. Green Lantern could make a construct to do it, but Superman alone can't. Superman also can't buzz through a crowded city at supersonic speeds because that would cause all sorts of destruction. Flash could do it because the Speed Force would lend him that flexibility, but Superman can't.

So, you have a Superman who's still powerful, but can't pull of many of the specific feats that go hand-in-hand with comic book superheroes. One could argue that downside is that you're removing a lot of tropes from the comic book superhero genre of stories, but I say it means you have to be more inventive and do different action sequences altogether. There are literally dozens of multi-million dollar Hollywood movies of super-strong guys smashing things left and right, might as well take a different take.

Can't say i agree!! Don't water down superman powers! Let superman be superman as powerful as he has every been. The supervillains are getting stronger and with more powers. Superman need to be able to match them! Not serve as their punching bag!!

[Quinlan58]

I don't think the whole "he can't do stuff to not conflict with real world physics" would be much fun to read. It'd just be a constant reminder that Supes can't do this cool thing.

[DochaDocha]

Can't say i agree!! Don't water down superman powers! Let superman be superman as powerful as he has every been. The supervillains are getting stronger and with more powers. Superman need to be able to match them! Not serve as their punching bag!!

Don't water down Superman's powers? That's, like, the exact opposite of what I said.

I don't think the whole "he can't do stuff to not conflict with real world physics" would be much fun to read. It'd just be a constant reminder that Supes can't do this cool thing.

I understand the concern, but I'd at least like to see them try to do stuff differently.

I'm not saying the solution is Superman can't do something, so he throws his hands up in the air and says can't do this, oh well. It'd be more he has to come up with clever solutions to tough problems. That could be interesting.

EDIT: I know my post focused a lot on putting more restrictions on Superman, but using real-world physics can also add some buffs to the character, too. Trying to apply real-world physics has given us stuff like the Infinite Mass punch.

Watch this V-Sauce video for some ideas of what kind of interesting things you don't normally see associated with Superman come into play if you try to incorporate real physics. It can be a give-and-take situation, but at least it'd be novel.

[Kuwagaton]

So many kinds of those things I'd wanna do for the character. they mention injustice, in a game like that I'd make actually connecting with a punch to be a full meter move. If you're gonna make everyone competitive then you have to sell him differently. In stories I think the easiest thing is cherry picking physics. You can possibly get people on board to observe the same laws, but there are plenty of great stories that don't really try.

I'm also of the general mindset of making him more clever than powerful, but that leads to a lot of assumptions that he's not that powerful. Post Crisis Superman is kinda the poster boy for this because it's pretty hard to write a character even that strong (lifts maybe 3000 tons to the best of his knowledge, flies at 770,000 mph, withstands nukes and acceleration to lightspeed in the space of maybe a minute).

[DochaDocha]

So many kinds of those things I'd wanna do for the character. they mention injustice, in a game like that I'd make actually connecting with a punch to be a full meter move. If you're gonna make everyone competitive then you have to sell him differently. In stories I think the easiest thing is cherry picking physics. You can possibly get people on board to observe the same laws, but there are plenty of great stories that don't really try.

I'm also of the general mindset of making him more clever than powerful, but that leads to a lot of assumptions that he's not that powerful. Post Crisis Superman is kinda the poster boy for this because it's pretty hard to write a character even that strong (lifts maybe 3000 tons to the best of his knowledge, flies at 770,000 mph, withstands nukes and acceleration to lightspeed in the space of maybe a minute).

Yeah, that's the big problem with clever vs. powerful. Comic books can get away with it using internal monologues. Anime gets away with it (or at least used to) by having some outside observer go on some exposition dump while the events are occurring. Iron Man could get away with it because he'd always talk to Jarvis or Friday and literally had to explain his intent in order to accomplish his goals. For Superman on the big screen, that's a lot trickier to accomplish without intrusive narration.

[Stanlos]

Hmmmmmmmmm
I always say the last thing I am looking for in comics is "realism" yet I get irritated and lose my bleeeeep when I encounter things like fully articulable Hawk wings on a harness or superheroes pushing celestial bodies like they are marbles.

That said, no one reads Superman to see Someone Who Can't. As a modern interpretation of Hercules Superman would definitely have the raw power to do things like that, if not casually, but the physics wouldn't allow it as depicted say in Infinite Crisis.

[PCN24454]

Hmmmmmmmmm
I always say the last thing I am looking for in comics is "realism" yet I get irritated and lose my bleeeeep when I encounter things like fully articulable Hawk wings on a harness or superheroes pushing celestial bodies like they are marbles.

That said, no one reads Superman to see Someone Who Can't. As a modern interpretation of Hercules Superman would definitely have the raw power to do things like that, if not casually, but the physics wouldn't allow it as depicted say in Infinite Crisis.

Everything within reason.

I'm completely fine with stuff like 500 tons or can't lift an airplane on strength alone, but they shouldn't be seen as limitations.

[Stanlos]

Here's another question for SUPERMAN fans of MAYBE it is a word of caution. All three of the Can Do Superheros from the 40s--Supes, Wondy, Cap--have all had the number of powers they have reduced over time. All of them at one time had superhuman versions of just about every superhuman trait. Wondy and Cap have seen the number of their powers reduced the most.

Do you really want to wake up one day and see Supes with only superhuman strength and speed?

[DochaDocha]

Here's another question for SUPERMAN fans of MAYBE it is a word of caution. All three of the Can Do Superheros from the 40s--Supes, Wondy, Cap--have all had the number of powers they have reduced over time. All of them at one time had superhuman versions of just about every superhuman trait. Wondy and Cap have seen the number of their powers reduced the most.

Do you really want to wake up one day and see Supes with only superhuman strength and speed?

Hell no. It'd make Superman seem more garden variety and boring. I can make exceptions for early-years stories like Morrison's Nu52, but as a baseline for Superman? Absolutely not.

[Powerboy]

Yeah, the numbers don't actually mean anything.

The reason people think DC characters are so outlandish and that Marvel characters are so weak relatively is that DC won't specify what the characters can do so we default to what they do in the stories.

Spider-Man does things that he would have to be able to lift and move thousands of tons at the very least and does so consistently. Colossus and Ben Grimm do things all the time that would be millions of tons or even billions. Thor and the Hulk are even beyond that.

But, the Marvel Handbooks say Spidey can lift ten tons, Colossus 70 or so, Ben 80-90. So people accept that over what they see with their own eyes in the stories.

[Powerboy]

For a company owned character Spider-Man is pretty consistently written, and he's mostly ranged from like 10-30 tons. He's generally one to lift like an 18 wheeler or support beams in buildings. They'll probably never have him look so strong that they lose the homage to the pretty modest feat in If This Be My Destiny. At least on Wikipedia they say a calm Hulk can lift about 70 tons but that means writers fluctuate pretty wildly even compared to Superman. It's those fantastically strong characters where the numbers come out of a hat.

Let me put it this way to use an example someone on another CBR board once used. Let's take an average living room. Now let's say it's waterproof and then fill it with water. BOOM! You've got at least a hundred tons right there. A calm Hulk who is about to change back to Banner could juggle that using his little finger.

You've got Ben Grimm holding up multiple collapsing buildings or Colossus stopping a train without himself budging.

Supposedly, the Marvel writers are told to ignore the handbooks (and they probably would anyway). They are supposedly told not to worry that Spider-Man can lift ten tons because it's "classes", not weight. So Spidey is really a Class 10, Colossus Class 70, Ben Class 85, Thor Class 100+, etc. In practice, that means you should present a Class 70 as stronger than a Class 10 and so on but don't adhere to the actual number of tons.