A more realistic Superman in a more realistic World: Superman 10,000

[Powerboy]

I don't want to harsh anyone's buzz--lower level superman stories are fun, I love UNBREAKABLE--but I don't think it's any more realistic to have a guy that's much stronger than any normal man, but not as strong as the present day Superman. Because, realism dictates that this is all impossible. Any body that was capable of such feats would break--it's impossible to build something that could sustain that and still function as a living organism. As soon as you apply real physics to Superman or any super-heroes, it all comes crashing down. Even UNBREAKABLE seems to depend on some sort of magic that makes him capable of his feats and not science.

The Super Superman exists because the publishers decided they might as well go big or go home--given the character is scientifically impossible even at lower levels.

I think we all know that "realism" in super heroics just means "lower power level". It's not more realistic at all, as you said.

I liker all sorts of power levels.

I think the problem with Superman is context. I love a lot of the early Golden Age stuff where he's not that powerful compared to what he was later or to later heroes. But he was the top of the heap at the time. Well, okay, the Spectre. But I don't think that, in those early days, they thought of different characters as existing in the same world just because they were published by the same company or even written by the same writer. If it happened in a Superman story, then it existed in the world Superman existed in. So, Normal Man x 10,000 only works in a world where everyone else is even less than that.

On the subject of Unbreakable (and I have not seen the sequel), I really liked it and I thought what was particularly appealing is that trick that you never actually saw him do anything superhuman. It was always just implied but nothing you actually saw was undeniably superhuman. And, before anyone (not you) mentions the train, you never saw it.

[Powerboy]

having superman push the Moon around so he can eclipse Nuclearman so he loses his powers is a bit of strain on credulity, don't you think? It is much harder to believe than than he can lift 500 tons. There is a big difference between the Moon and 500 tons! Are you saying that if he can lift 500 tons, he might as well push the Moon around as well?

I would say it depends on the character. Having some characters move a moon would be contrary to their established strength levels. For Superman, it's okay.

Oh, I know people invoke all sorts of physics problems with someone moving a moon or planet, let alone a galaxy. But that's just selective criticism. None of this super stuff exists or would work in reality.

[Powerboy]

I don't think the whole "he can't do stuff to not conflict with real world physics" would be much fun to read. It'd just be a constant reminder that Supes can't do this cool thing.

There was a series of novels called "Wild Cards" where they tried to somewhat adhere to real world physics. But I suspect that Superman stories like that would be a novelty at first and then get boring and feel more like a Physics class.

[Jcogginsa]

I think Superman could benefit from a slightly lowered power level, not beecause it's more realistic, but because lowering things down gives the writers more freedom to create interesting scenarios. When you've got someone who can pull around presents, the only realy way to challenge his is via author fiat. "This scenario a threat to Superman because we've arbitrarily decided that it is" instead of using actual creativity.

That said, Superman still needs to have a grandeur to him, so he should still be amazingly strong. The way I like to think of it is like this: Think of the heaviest thing real world man has ever built. Superman can lift that.

(If you're curious, that would be the Great Wall of China, which is 116 billion pounds)

[Jon Clark]

There was a series of novels called "Wild Cards" where they tried to somewhat adhere to real world physics. But I suspect that Superman stories like that would be a novelty at first and then get boring and feel more like a Physics class.

I think it would only be a physics lesson if the writer kept trying to explain stuff and/or bringing up what couldn't be done. It could just as easily be a book where the creative team works out the physics behind the scenes and writes the story so the hero isn't supporting the structural weight of a car with one hand or hearing sounds instantly from thousands of miles away.

[Killerbee911]

Can't say i agree!! Don't water down superman powers! Let superman be superman as powerful as he has every been. The supervillains are getting stronger and with more powers. Superman need to be able to match them! Not serve as their punching bag!!

I mean why would you ever want Superman to solve a problem with his brain, creativity, or with skilled fighting. No just have him be powerful so we can avoid seeing those things. Every ridiculously powerful shonen protagonist gets beat down has to train and comes back to avenge their loss. The anime character they compare Superman most in Goku has to regularly train to get stronger because of an opponent who is stronger, Yes it is an annoying treadmill process but he almost always never the strongest person.

I see it all the time OMG Superman has to be this powerful. They are diminishing returns on being so powerful, If Lois is falling off a building, Is there any doubt that lightspeed Superman is going to get her? If a meteor is falling at the earth, Is there any doubt that a guy who can push a planet can deal with it? After fighting Darkseid and holding his own, Who is gallery is going to be challenge? Once superman can do a certain thing it actually eliminates certain scenarios for him.

Superman being more powerful does not make him more amazing. The biggest myth is just that, What is the difference visually between Flash running Mach speed and Flash running lightspeed? Nothing. Until a strength feat is topped, It is amazing. Superman lifting a semi-trailer is amazing until you see him lift an Aircraft carrier, Which is amazing until you see him lift a Giant meteor. If the level is maintained at a certain place it will always being amazing. I remember watching the Brandon Routh Superman movie and the most amazing scene is still him stop the plane/spaceship from crashing or in Man of Steel where is holding up the oil rig that felt amazing. The some of most hype "Superman" stuff I have watched is Neo in the Matrix series. Upping the power level doesn't make something more amazing but it for certain ruins a series ability to do thing under that level again.

Side note- To be clear this is not just a Superman issue the same can be said for a ton of other DC and other heroes but where the problem comes in for Superman is that he presented at his highest levels consistently and people clearly know what his upper limits are so it harder to accept him performing under that. Whereas someone like flash is just as broken but Flash regular fights characters below his level and doesn't always show his upper limits. Flash got hit by a blow dart on CW show and I turned off my TV but most people don't have that reaction because Flash doesn't always get to cool stuff like run around the world and each time around he hits Brainiac Lex Luthor. Superman is the hero with the most consistently high-level presentation and what makes him great is also what makes him stick out like a sore thumb.

[SecretWarrior]

I wouldn't like it if they limited superman powers to those levels. He should be powerful enough to go toe to toe with the most powerful supervillains in the Dc universe! Not some minor league hero!!

Well, they would be scaled accordingly.

The benefit is that you can tell more stories with him, since his threats could range beyond Lex, monsters, and aliens. I mean many of his threats like Metallo and Parasite aren't threatening. Scaling up his villains takes away their horror movie quality and just makes them dime store sci fi villains. Who cares about him fighting crime when the mob or governmental figures stand no chance? It's called Action Comics. He should be able to kick *** without disrupting global geopolitics like Dr. Manhattan.

[PCN24454]

Well, they would be scaled accordingly.

The benefit is that you can tell more stories with him, since his threats could range beyond Lex, monsters, and aliens. I mean many of his threats like Metallo and Parasite aren't threatening. Scaling up his villains takes away their horror movie quality and just makes them dime store sci fi villains. Who cares about him fighting crime when the mob or governmental figures stand no chance? It's called Action Comics. He should be able to kick *** without disrupting global geopolitics like Dr. Manhattan.

This is a joke, right? Their powersets make them two of Superman's most dangerous enemies.

[SecretWarrior]

This is a joke, right? Their powersets make them two of Superman's most dangerous enemies.

Unlike Doomsday, who is scaled up to him, no one thinks Clark might die in a conflict with one or both of them.

[PCN24454]

Unlike Doomsday, who is scaled up to him, no one thinks Clark might die in a conflict with one or both of them.

That's literally the difference between a normal episode and a season finale. It would be bad writing for Superman to be killed by anyone.

[SecretWarrior]

That's literally the difference between a normal episode and a season finale. It would be bad writing for Superman to be killed by anyone.

Not killed, but there should be tension, like when Cap fights Chitauri, STRIKE agents, Crossbones, or Thanos's Hordes. There is rarely any plausible tension in a Superman story.

Heck, even top tier MCU Avengers like Thor, Vision, and Scarlet Witch have plausible Earth-based threats from Ultron to each other.

[Adekis]

I dunno, I'm always at least vaguely intrigued by the idea of a weaker Superman, if he's still generally the strongest person in his world. I'm not sure if ten thousand is strong enough to make those mad hops, but let's say he's as strong as say, Iron Munro, that could be fun.

That said, again, everyone else has to be scaled down to match, and not just practically but conceptually as well. If Superman is only as strong as Iron Munro, then Flash can only be as fast as immediately post-Crisis Wally - and no sense that he could ever boost back up like Wally actually eventually did. And Batman can't be crazy prepared and able to win any fight either. You get the idea.

Still, I'd be interested, I think, to see a version of this idea realized in a parallel world.

[Jcogginsa]

I dunno, I'm always at least vaguely intrigued by the idea of a weaker Superman, if he's still generally the strongest person in his world. I'm not sure if ten thousand is strong enough to make those mad hops, but let's say he's as strong as say, Iron Munro, that could be fun.

That said, again, everyone else has to be scaled down to match, and not just practically but conceptually as well. If Superman is only as strong as Iron Munro, then Flash can only be as fast as immediately post-Crisis Wally - and no sense that he could ever boost back up like Wally actually eventually did. And Batman can't be crazy prepared and able to win any fight either. You get the idea.

Still, I'd be interested, I think, to see a version of this idea realized in a parallel world.

What do you think of my suggestion from earlier

I think Superman could benefit from a slightly lowered power level, not beecause it's more realistic, but because lowering things down gives the writers more freedom to create interesting scenarios. When you've got someone who can pull around presents, the only realy way to challenge his is via author fiat. "This scenario a threat to Superman because we've arbitrarily decided that it is" instead of using actual creativity.

That said, Superman still needs to have a grandeur to him, so he should still be amazingly strong. The way I like to think of it is like this: Think of the heaviest thing real world man has ever built. Superman can lift that.

(If you're curious, that would be the Great Wall of China, which is 116 billion pounds)

[Adekis]

What do you think of my suggestion from earlier

Your suggestion that Superman should be able to pick up the Great Wall of China brings to mind the question of how his strength works. I tend to think in terms of the Byrneian bioelectric aura which extends from his body to protect the structural integrity of whatever he picks up - but only to a point.

To me, a "weaker" Superman should appear to be more beholden to physics. Not entirely beholden, but more than say, Byrne's is. So my hypothetical "Munro" Superman would either have no bioelectric aura, or one that can extend to reinforce the structural integrity of say, maybe a big bus, or a small plane, but not much more than that.

He might or might not be able to bench press 116 billion pounds, but he couldn't just pick up the Great Wall; it would break.

[The Frog Bros]

Makes me think of a Neal Adams interview:

"But I don’t want to do a god. I don’t think you could evolve a god on a planet — it doesn’t make any sense. You can’t fly into the sun. You can’t put your hands on the side of a planet and move it. In fact, if you were a real Superman and you wanted to move a ship out to sea, you couldn’t do it by pushing it because your hands are only about six inches long. What would happen if you pushed is that [the hands] would just embed into the ship and you would pretty much fly through the ship. In other sequences, Superman will fly through a ship. Why does he not fly through a ship in this sequence and fly through a ship in the next sequence? Because we’re really not thinking of Superman; we’re thinking of a god who can use his abilities at the whim of his mind.

I would rather see a Superman who, if he’s going to move a ship, he doesn’t embed himself into the ship. He should be a character who figures things out for himself and how he conducts himself on a planet where everybody else is much, much weaker than he is. All of these things seems to me have been ignored in many ways, and it’s just, ‘Well, we’ll do a god thing.’"