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  1. #1051
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I think this is the calm before the storm. Big showdown with the Flag Smashers in the finale with redefinition for some folks. Sam as Cap and what John will become.
    I think they are going to slightly redeem John a bit.

    He's gonna show up to stop the flagsmashers (who are going to be confirmed as pure bad at this point).

    obviously bucky and sam and showing up. plus batroc.

    My prediction is that Bucky saves Walker from being murked by one of the flagsmashers... and then Sam saves karli from getting murked by Batroc. i don't thin Batroc is there for Wilson. I think Sharon is trying to kill Karli.

    Batroc is ther eit give Sam someone who isn't super solider to fight... he saves Karli, Karli turns herself in.
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  2. #1052
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    One of my favorite parts about that scene is that you as an audience are left wondering which was the bigger factor. Is he lying first and foremost to give the Hoskins family closure? Or is he doing it because the narrative needs to be about him being the big damn hero? The scene never gives us a clear answer and it could totally go either way. Which just leaves you wanting to believe that John Walker is doing a good thing for the family of someone who mattered to him but suspecting that he's really just trying to gloss his own shine and make it, yet again, about him. It might be a glimmer of hope that there is still something decent left in the man, or it might just be another despicable action in his descent. Love the layers.

    And the fact that Lamar is black and maybe being used by a white man as a prop to make himself look like a bigger hero instead of a violent murderer just fits so well into the way the show executes Isaiah's story. There is genuine nuance and ambiguity to these characters that you just don't often see in this kind of material.
    I don't think Walker was trying to make himself out to be more of a hero to Lamar's family. You could see how obviously gutted he was having to tell them what happened and that's probably what partly motivated him to make it sound like he had gotten justice for Lamar (and he'll probably still think he's doing that when he goes after the rest of the Flag-Smashers). If it was all about him I don't think he would've bothered saying he was sorry. If anything his mom made it more about Walker by talking about how proud Lamar was to be his partner, which probably screwed Walker up even more.

    I can kind of see the racial aspect but Lamar was genuinely Walker's best friend and it's clear Walker cared about him. He wasn't downplaying Lamar at all, especially when he told Lamar's mom how the admiration was mutual.
    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I think they are going to slightly redeem John a bit.

    He's gonna show up to stop the flagsmashers (who are going to be confirmed as pure bad at this point).

    obviously bucky and sam and showing up. plus batroc.

    My prediction is that Bucky saves Walker from being murked by one of the flagsmashers... and then Sam saves karli from getting murked by Batroc. i don't thin Batroc is there for Wilson. I think Sharon is trying to kill Karli.

    Batroc is ther eit give Sam someone who isn't super solider to fight... he saves Karli, Karli turns herself in.
    If the Flag-Smashers get arrested and get sent to The Raft (because where else would they send them?) they're probably dead-folk walking with Zemo there.

  3. #1053
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    With Contessa showing up I am willing to put money on the MCU introducing Nick Fury Sr.

  4. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    With Contessa showing up I am willing to put money on the MCU introducing Nick Fury Sr.
    Wouldn't he be 110 by now?

  5. #1055
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    With Contessa showing up I am willing to put money on the MCU introducing Nick Fury Sr.
    how much money? because I'll take that bet.
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  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think Walker was trying to make himself out to be more of a hero to Lamar's family. You could see how obviously gutted he was having to tell them what happened and that's probably what partly motivated him to make it sound like he had gotten justice for Lamar (and he'll probably still think he's doing that when he goes after the rest of the Flag-Smashers). If it was all about him I don't think he would've bothered saying he was sorry. If anything his mom made it more about Walker by talking about how proud Lamar was to be his partner, which probably screwed Walker up even more.

    I can kind of see the racial aspect but Lamar was genuinely Walker's best friend and it's clear Walker cared about him. He wasn't downplaying Lamar at all, especially when he told Lamar's mom how the admiration was mutual.
    I'm not going to disagree with your reading of the scene, but suffice to say I disagree that the scene is remotely clear cut. The man outright lied to this family. In a way that unquestionably makes him look better. The ambiguity is so thick the scene is almost drowning in it. But the fun thing is exactly that, that it plays both ways. I can't say that your reading of the scene is in any way wrong, because it isn't. But the much more sinister reading of the scene is equally valid. That's what makes it such skillful writing, and acting on Wyatt Russel's part too. What's going on in that head of is? Does he even know anymore?

    I absolutely love that this version of John Walker could just as easily still be a good guy who has gotten a bad roll as he could be a completely manipulative, entitled villain. And that he himself may not be entirely conscious of where on that spectrum he falls anymore. It leaves the character in a much more interesting place than the black or white absolutes, and leaves the audience hanging on where and in what capacity he may appear next week, or elsewhere in the MCU going forward. This version of the character is fascinating to me precisely because his descent has been so ambiguous, his choices and motives able to be read as noble or sinister in equal measure. He's an absolute wildcard, as unpredictable to the audience as the characters around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    If the Flag-Smashers get arrested and get sent to The Raft (because where else would they send them?) they're probably dead-folk walking with Zemo there.
    Given how relatively quietly Zemo went, I expect that's been his planned endgame all along. To get put away with the supersoldiers when the heroes catch them, so that he can do what he knows Sam and Bucky won't. It's Punisher getting locked up with the very people he most wants to kill, a near perfect Trojan Horse.

  7. #1057
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Good episode, but I feel like having the big fight first threw the pacing off, I kept waiting for the credits to roll because we'd already gotten the big battle.

    I gotta agree with whoever said the Buck-Sam-Walker fight seemed a little off.

    Maybe that's just me not having my head wrapped around the idea that Walker's a super soldier now, or maybe I'm not giving this "new and improved" serum enough credit, but it seems like he held his own too well. Bucky's been killing people for eighty years and Sam's an Avenger who's spent his career fighting monsters and superhumans; I feel like John should have put up a legit fight, but even with the shield I feel like Buck and Sam (mostly Buck, Sam was in over his head) struggled a bit more than they should have.

    But I really enjoyed the episode, even if the fight-first structure put me off balance. Nice to get back to the Wilson family and see the community come together for them; I feel like *that's* the America Sam is meant to represent as Cap; not the banks and politicians but the regular people, doing what they can for each other. Also nice to see Bucky comment on how he and Steve didn't consider how giving the shield to a black man would play out; I feel like it helps show the generation gap and how Bucky and Steve were still slightly out of step with modern sensibilities and concerns.

    Loved the scene of Sam and Bucky essentially playing catch with the shield. That was a really good moment and I thought the cast and crew really nailed that. And I don't find it weird (like someone said) that Sam struggled to catch the shield during his training montage; with Bucky they were just standing there, tossing the shield back and forth, but during the training Sam was trying to do all the flips and tricks that Steve did; it's playing catch with your buddy compared to training for the NFL.

    And it was nice to spend a little less time with the Flag Smashers. I'm feeling their plight and Karli has compelling motivations even if she's not terribly interesting or dynamic, but they're definitely the weak point in this narrative and I was glad to be away from them a bit.

    The cameo was fun and I adore the casting. Total surprise.

    Stuff with Isiah was great; really good, emotional stuff there. Clearly it hit hard in all the right ways, if those cancel culture conservative fools on youtube are crying about it.

    Not even gonna guess what Sharon is up to. Her being the power broker seems far too obvious, but then again, Wandavision told us "it was all Wanda" in like, episode 3 and I spent the last 6 waiting for the "blame" twist that never came, so maybe Sharon's not a red herring and what it looks like is exactly what it is.

    And alas, poor Zemo. Though I wonder why the hell Wakanda would ever send him to the Raft? Why hunt him down at all, if all you were gonna do is hand Zemo over to the Americans? But I suppose (and hope!) that Marvel needed Zemo somewhere Ross could access him for a yet-unannounced Thunderbolts thing.

    Next Friday can't come fast enough.
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  8. #1058
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    I don't think they'd want Zemo in their home country

  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And alas, poor Zemo. Though I wonder why the hell Wakanda would ever send him to the Raft? Why hunt him down at all, if all you were gonna do is hand Zemo over to the Americans?
    Well, nobody has a better reason to make sure Zemo is locked up, and locked up tight. As for why the Raft, there are plenty of possible reasons. Diplomacy being the obvious, with Wakanda coming onto the world stage. There could also be good reasons why T'Challa wouldn't want Zemo in Wakanda. That's a lot of pent up nationalist and tribal anger just waiting for something or somebody to do something about it. And T'Challa doesn't want Zemo dead, he wants him to live with his grief and his failure. It is also possible that T'Challa has connections at the Raft, through Everett Ross, and may feel better about keeping eyes on him there.

    Thunderbolts seems the most likely outcome however, I agree. I'm crossing my fingers for sooner rather than later. Maybe throw John Walker in there just to keep things interesting. There are some very watchable bad guys running around the MCU these days. And plenty of new faces they could intro that would make fans happy.

  10. #1060
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I'm not going to disagree with your reading of the scene, but suffice to say I disagree that the scene is remotely clear cut. The man outright lied to this family. In a way that unquestionably makes him look better. The ambiguity is so thick the scene is almost drowning in it. But the fun thing is exactly that, that it plays both ways. I can't say that your reading of the scene is in any way wrong, because it isn't. But the much more sinister reading of the scene is equally valid. That's what makes it such skillful writing, and acting on Wyatt Russel's part too. What's going on in that head of is? Does he even know anymore?

    I absolutely love that this version of John Walker could just as easily still be a good guy who has gotten a bad roll as he could be a completely manipulative, entitled villain. And that he himself may not be entirely conscious of where on that spectrum he falls anymore. It leaves the character in a much more interesting place than the black or white absolutes, and leaves the audience hanging on where and in what capacity he may appear next week, or elsewhere in the MCU going forward. This version of the character is fascinating to me precisely because his descent has been so ambiguous, his choices and motives able to be read as noble or sinister in equal measure. He's an absolute wildcard, as unpredictable to the audience as the characters around him.
    It's just my emotional reading of him from his expressions and voice, but considering he's an emotional mess that might not be the most reliable.
    Given how relatively quietly Zemo went, I expect that's been his planned endgame all along. To get put away with the supersoldiers when the heroes catch them, so that he can do what he knows Sam and Bucky won't. It's Punisher getting locked up with the very people he most wants to kill, a near perfect Trojan Horse.
    Probably not a sure thing, but a likely enough outcome that he could count on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I gotta agree with whoever said the Buck-Sam-Walker fight seemed a little off.

    Maybe that's just me not having my head wrapped around the idea that Walker's a super soldier now, or maybe I'm not giving this "new and improved" serum enough credit, but it seems like he held his own too well. Bucky's been killing people for eighty years and Sam's an Avenger who's spent his career fighting monsters and superhumans; I feel like John should have put up a legit fight, but even with the shield I feel like Buck and Sam (mostly Buck, Sam was in over his head) struggled a bit more than they should have.
    Walker always had the training and the pedigree. He was solid with the shield without the serum. But now he has it and is basically a more hardcore and dangerous version of Steve.

    I don't think it's that crazy that they both struggled against him.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Thunderbolts seems the most likely outcome however, I agree. I'm crossing my fingers for sooner rather than later. Maybe throw John Walker in there just to keep things interesting. There are some very watchable bad guys running around the MCU these days. And plenty of new faces they could intro that would make fans happy.
    I don't know where they will go with the T-Bolts roster, but we've got the setup for Jeff Parker's T-Bolts and that also had Walker (and Ghost, I think?) involved.

    I'm a classic T-Bolts guy so I hope they can fit them in, but I think Fixer, Songbird, and Moonstone are probably the most likely. I think I remember Fixer being rumored to be in this, but I don't see that happening.

  11. #1061
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    I'm surprised Wakanda doesn't just execute Zemo. Seems like it's something they would do without hesitation
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  12. #1062
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I'm surprised Wakanda doesn't just execute Zemo. Seems like it's something they would do without hesitation
    T'Challa probably gave them a no-kill order.

  13. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I'm surprised Wakanda doesn't just execute Zemo. Seems like it's something they would do without hesitation
    T'Challa's entire point at the end of Civil War was to not let Zemo kill himself. That he didn't get to just die and avoid the fallout from the choices he had made. In a twisted way, T'challa was punishing him by keeping him away from reuniting with his dead family. Particularly given how literal the djalia makes that concept within the Black Panther film, that seems like a very T'Challa thing to do, and a suitably harsh punishment for the man who killed his father. I'm not sure executing him now really fits the theme from then, as it were.

    Though as we've now seen, a Zemo who has had a chance to put himself back together and act less from his emotions and more from his logic is a pretty damn scary thing. So maybe something they should have considered.

  14. #1064
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Wouldn't he be 110 by now?
    Sure, but serums,mad scientists and secret histories!

    If this series has taught us anything, the MCU is willing to back fill the universe with secret histories

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    how much money? because I'll take that bet.
    Hmmm.. enough to buy a hand drawn NFT of Nick Fury Sr. by me.. a grand total of $1

  15. #1065
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Walker seemed bloodusted. Bucky and falcon just wanted the shield.

    Plus bucky seemed emotionally off

    Fight seemed fine to me. Bucky took extra damage getting rid of yhe gun early
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