Falcon And Winter Soldier

[CosmiComic]

why not...realistically spoilers:

all he did was kill a terrorist...instead of in the middle of the night in a camp in the middle of the desert he did it in broad daylight in a town square with a bunch of cel phones recording it.

end of spoilers

That's true, but the show framed it as something wrong. I guess we'll see

[Chris0013]

That's true, but the show framed it as something wrong. I guess we'll see

Well...spoilers:

the wrong was...he did it in broad daylight in a town square with a bunch of cel phones recording it. end of spoilers. The US Government generally likes that done out of sight.

end of spoilers

[ZeroBG82]

spoilers:

I don't think Walker craves power for powers sake because he's in that situation because he feels like he has to stop bad guys and prove himself against the expectations and demand of the identity he's been thrust into, one he took on because he wanted to serve his country and do good. He just doesn't have the same inherently moral nature that defined Steve as Captain America that could bring him back from the brink. Because that's what Battlestar was to Walker.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Except he was offered alternative solutions even before he took the serum. Sam had Karli talked down. THAT close to ending this whole mess. But Walker got impatient and had to butt in. I do think it's true that he has found himself in an extraordinary situation and the pressure is mounting between what he believes the expectations for that role are versus what he can deliver. But Sam showed him a path to beating a super soldier, and it didn't involve physical violence. Walker sees the shield, and the suit, and he clearly sees POWER. Respect, authority, strength. Walker sees the myth of what Captain America was as a display of power. He has come to understand that just wearing the suit and carrying the shield won't impart him with whatever made Steve into Captain America. But rather than understand that what made Steve special, what made Steve great, came from his heart and his head, he decides that what he's missing in comparison is purely physical power. That Steve was a legend because he won, and he won because he was superhuman. It's absolutely true that Walker didn't set out on the path he's on purely for the acquisition of power. That's what makes this turn tragic, as well as horrifying. But when the serum was in his hands, and with it the power to physically alter his place in the world, he chose the selfish path. Walker took the serum FOR HIMSELF, and himself alone. Not to help people, not to better serve a cause, but to make himself feel superior. He chose this path solely so that he could beat a man to death if he so chose. And now he has.

end of spoilers

I think it is a little more than that for Walker....spoilers:

He does not want power just to have power...but to win the fight he has been thrown into. Not exactly as altruistic as Steve...but not a selfish "I want power for power's sake"

end of spoilers

Those are the same thing. Wanting to win is literally the definition of wanting power for power's sake.

[CosmiComic]

Well...spoilers:

the wrong was...he did it in broad daylight in a town square with a bunch of cel phones recording it. end of spoilers. The US Government generally likes that done out of sight.

end of spoilers

I'm sure SHIELD would feel that way as well.

Still, spoilers:

it feels odd to me how, of the main Avengers' successors, Cap's is not so heroic

end of spoilers

[ZeroBG82]

I'm sure SHIELD would feel that way as well.

Still, spoilers:

it feels odd to me how, of the main Avengers' successors, Cap's is not so heroic

end of spoilers

Walker isn't Cap's successor, you know that. Whatever they end up calling him, and whether he wears the colors or sticks to the red/white/black, Sam Wilson is, and always will be, Cap's successor.

[CosmiComic]

Walker isn't Cap's successor, you know that. Whatever they end up calling him, and whether he wears the colors or sticks to the red/white/black, Sam Wilson is, and always will be, Cap's successor.

Yeah, that was the wrong word. I meant "newer character based on the same template," like War Machine is to Iron Man

[Frontier]

spoilers:

Except he was offered alternative solutions even before he took the serum. Sam had Karli talked down. THAT close to ending this whole mess. But Walker got impatient and had to butt in. I do think it's true that he has found himself in an extraordinary situation and the pressure is mounting between what he believes the expectations for that role are versus what he can deliver. But Sam showed him a path to beating a super soldier, and it didn't involve physical violence. Walker sees the shield, and the suit, and he clearly sees POWER. Respect, authority, strength. Walker sees the myth of what Captain America was as a display of power. He has come to understand that just wearing the suit and carrying the shield won't impart him with whatever made Steve into Captain America. But rather than understand that what made Steve special, what made Steve great, came from his heart and his head, he decides that what he's missing in comparison is purely physical power. That Steve was a legend because he won, and he won because he was superhuman. It's absolutely true that Walker didn't set out on the path he's on purely for the acquisition of power. That's what makes this turn tragic, as well as horrifying. But when the serum was in his hands, and with it the power to physically alter his place in the world, he chose the selfish path. Walker took the serum FOR HIMSELF, and himself alone. Not to help people, not to better serve a cause, but to make himself feel superior. He chose this path solely so that he could beat a man to death if he so chose. And now he has.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

He didn't actually know Sam was getting through to her (unless they were somehow listening in on the entire conversation, but I didn't get that sense), and he didn't believe Sam could because that's just not how Walker thinks. If he projects a more aggressive stance I think that's less because of what he wants and more what is expected of him to do as an American soldier and not a paragon of virtue and diplomacy (which Captain America is supposed to be, but that probably isn't the popular opinion from Walker's experience). He wants the power to fulfill the mission and his obligations and not just personally for himself. He just doesn't read as power-hungry to me. If he was planning to kill the Flag-Smashers before what happened to Battlestar it was because they were dangerous terrorists in his mind and not because he just wanted to kill them.

end of spoilers

[ZeroBG82]

spoilers:

He wants the power to fulfill the mission and his obligations and not just personally for himself. He just doesn't read as power-hungry to me. If he was planning to kill the Flag-Smashers before what happened to Battlestar it was because they were dangerous terrorists in his mind and not because he just wanted to kill them.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

But he knows he doesn't need them to do just that. Look no further than Hawkeye and Black Widow amongst the Avengers. No, he takes the serum because he is made to feel inferior. And yes, a lot of that inferiority complex emerges out of the role he finds himself in, and the pressure. But he's a man used to being at the top, and though he clearly recognizes that he has big shoes to fill, his every action and conversation since we've met him have made clear that he thinks he is entitled to certain treatment because of who he is. He wants that respect, that authority, that comes with the suit. He flat out shouts "Do you know who I am?" at civilian when they raid the place the Flag Smashers had been staying. He isn't getting the response from people he was expecting, or that he wants. All the talk of his mission, or of his obligations are secondary to his need to not feel like he sucks, and is at the bottom of the totem pole. Now, he has also clearly deluded himself that he took the serum for noble purposes. As has Karli. She took it to enact change in the world, but honestly she probably took it because she felt helpless and bullied and was just plain sick of it. And we see that in the way she's going slowly off the rails herself. At the end of the day, they CHOSE power. They could have chosen sacrifice, or hard work. But they chose the shortcut, because it was easy and it was there. If Walker actually cared about completing his mission, he would never have burst in on Sam. Let the man try. What difference does it make who ends the threat? But no, he cares about being seen to be the one completing the mission. It's about him, and how he is perceived, and how he is responded to. The irony, given that ending, is thick indeed.

end of spoilers

[PD98]

I'm sure SHIELD would feel that way as well.

Still, spoilers:

it feels odd to me how, of the main Avengers' successors, Cap's is not so heroic

end of spoilers

Well, Steve is the person that decided that living through segregation and every single civil injustice and inequality over the past 80 years was fine as long as he got sex so karma.

[OblivionX33]

spoilers:

Except he was offered alternative solutions even before he took the serum. Sam had Karli talked down. THAT close to ending this whole mess. But Walker got impatient and had to butt in. I do think it's true that he has found himself in an extraordinary situation and the pressure is mounting between what he believes the expectations for that role are versus what he can deliver. But Sam showed him a path to beating a super soldier, and it didn't involve physical violence. Walker sees the shield, and the suit, and he clearly sees POWER. Respect, authority, strength. Walker sees the myth of what Captain America was as a display of power. He has come to understand that just wearing the suit and carrying the shield won't impart him with whatever made Steve into Captain America. But rather than understand that what made Steve special, what made Steve great, came from his heart and his head, he decides that what he's missing in comparison is purely physical power. That Steve was a legend because he won, and he won because he was superhuman. It's absolutely true that Walker didn't set out on the path he's on purely for the acquisition of power. That's what makes this turn tragic, as well as horrifying. But when the serum was in his hands, and with it the power to physically alter his place in the world, he chose the selfish path. Walker took the serum FOR HIMSELF, and himself alone. Not to help people, not to better serve a cause, but to make himself feel superior. He chose this path solely so that he could beat a man to death if he so chose. And now he has.

end of spoilers



Those are the same thing. Wanting to win is literally the definition of wanting power for power's sake.

spoilers:

In that moment, Walker become what Zemo called Kari aka a Supermaicst. A person that only believeing in one way to solve their issues and that's through inhuman strength.

end of spoilers

[CosmiComic]

Well, Steve is the person that decided that living through segregation and every single civil injustice and inequality over the past 80 years was fine as long as he got sex so karma.

Could he have tried to change all that in his timeline?

[Frontier]

spoilers:

But he knows he doesn't need them to do just that. Look no further than Hawkeye and Black Widow amongst the Avengers. No, he takes the serum because he is made to feel inferior. And yes, a lot of that inferiority complex emerges out of the role he finds himself in, and the pressure. But he's a man used to being at the top, and though he clearly recognizes that he has big shoes to fill, his every action and conversation since we've met him have made clear that he thinks he is entitled to certain treatment because of who he is. He wants that respect, that authority, that comes with the suit. He flat out shouts "Do you know who I am?" at civilian when they raid the place the Flag Smashers had been staying. He isn't getting the response from people he was expecting, or that he wants. All the talk of his mission, or of his obligations are secondary to his need to not feel like he sucks, and is at the bottom of the totem pole. Now, he has also clearly deluded himself that he took the serum for noble purposes. As has Karli. She took it to enact change in the world, but honestly she probably took it because she felt helpless and bullied and was just plain sick of it. And we see that in the way she's going slowly off the rails herself. At the end of the day, they CHOSE power. They could have chosen sacrifice, or hard work. But they chose the shortcut, because it was easy and it was there. If Walker actually cared about completing his mission, he would never have burst in on Sam. Let the man try. What difference does it make who ends the threat? But no, he cares about being seen to be the one completing the mission. It's about him, and how he is perceived, and how he is responded to. The irony, given that ending, is thick indeed.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

See, I just haven't gotten the sense that being at the top matters that much to him. From what we've seen all he's focused on is his duty, the mission, and what he is expected to do. And he is continually shown he does not have the ability nor the skills to properly pull that duty off as Captain America and he's not Hawkeye or Black Widow, especially when he gets trounced by non Super Soldiers. Maybe some of that has given him a bit of an ego and idea of his own self-importance, but it comes back to his duty and what he feels he has to do to achieve it. He's so desperate to win because he needs to prove that they made the right choice making him Captain America. Walker still gave Sam the chance to do it even if he didn't agree with it. Lemar had to talk him into it, but he still went along with it up until he thought to himself that it wouldn't work because she was a radicalized terrorist. Not just so he could be the one to make the bust. I think the one thing Walker and Kari both are is people who want to do the right thing but see the serum for a means to an end that it really isn't.

end of spoilers

[Anthony W]

This show really wants us to feel something for Karli....but nope. She is just going to go into the column of forgettable MCU villains imho.

[Drops Of Venus]

spoilers:

That first scene in Wakanda was so powerful. I love how she was saying the trigger words in wakandan language. And of course, Sebastian's acting was just phenomenal. I don't think I've ever felt this much for Bucky before. It was also a really nice contrast between how his relationship with Ayo was back then, and how stained it is now that he betrayed Wakanda's trust. Zemo easily remains the most entertaining character of the whole show. There is not a single scene with him that isn't amusing. I really appreciate this levity that Daniel is bringing to the character. I never cared that much for Zemo sticking around before, but now, after this show, he simply must. Him just standing there and then escaping when no one was paying attention was just so damn funny. Plot induced stupidity for everyone else in the room for sure, but still funny. I also liked him bribing the kids with candy. I'm starting to feel bad that the show is making me root for him to get away with his crimes, but it is what it is... I'm glad they didn't downplay the Dora Milaje just to make the guys look better. They kicked their asses, as they should! That trick to (literally) disarm Bucky was neat. And that Dora just casually picking up the shield at the end just oozed badass MF energy. That ''Bast damns you, James'' really stung. I wonder how he's gonna come back from that, if at all. On another note, I hate everytime they call him White Wolf. I'm praying he won't be getting that as a codename by the end of the show... Sam's conversation with Karli was really good. He really is the closest person we have with the kind of ideals worthy of being Captain America. Steve knew that. I know we already know this by all the toy leaks, but the show just makes it clear to me there is no way anyone else other than him would end this story being Captain America. I'm interested to see how he's gonna reach that decision, though. And what he's gonna do about his Isaiah discovery. The morally gray area in which all of the antagonists of the show stand continues to be fascinating to me. Besides Zemo, we have Karli and John all being really complex characters who have good intentions, but **** up in some way or another. You feel bad for those men Karli killed when you hear how they left their families behind and you know she's wrong, but then she spends most of the episode being sympathetic only to end by threatening Sam's family, which is obviously taking it too far. Then John, which is obviously being an impatient ******* most of the episode, but then seems to be more humbled during that conversation with Lemar, in which you can see more humanity in his trauma from the military. And then he has to see his friend killed right in front of him... only to react in the worst way possible. I've never felt such mixed feelings about a Marvel production before. They are really blurring the lines here instead of doing your typical good vs evil story, and I think this is very interesting. Although I expect the show to have an actual big bad in the form of Power Broker in the end, much like WandaVision had Agatha. On another note, I'm sad to see Lemar go so soon. I was already expecting it to happen while watching the episode, specially considering Walker's comics history and how the loss of his loved ones was a big turning point for the character. So I imagined they would adapt that in some way, and since Lemar was the only person who'd been closer to him in those 4 episodes, it seemed inevitable that he was the one who was going to be sacrificed. Still, the fridging of the black best friend was probably not the best look for a show that's all about uplifting a black best friend character. It would've been nice to see Battlestar and USAgent together in the future. That last scene was gut wrenching. Seeing the Captain America shield all bloody like that after it was used to murder someone in cold blood is definitely an image that elicits strong emotions, and I'm glad they weren't afraid to go there for the shock value.

end of spoilers

[Kingdom X]

Well, Steve is the person that decided that living through segregation and every single civil injustice and inequality over the past 80 years was fine as long as he got sex so karma.

Speaking of inequalities I love how this show wants to hammer in how “old fashioned” Bucky and how he was only comfortable in the 40s without acknowledging that he’d probably have some biases related to race, sexuality, and gender.