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  1. #976
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I don't think that's their answer to him. Considering both exist independent of each other in comics. John was starting fights with people before his friend was even murdered. Punisher sought revenge for his family after they were killed. John is half action hero, half abusive authority member. Punisher comes from no authority. Both were soldiers. But Frank wasn't abusing his position as a soldier.
    Oh, I was just comparing how the two of them used so much violence on their enemies. I didn't watch the Punisher movies or shows, but I imagine Frank's actions were pretty bloody in them. I was very surprised to see how brutal John got in Episode 4. I didn't think Disney would go that far.

  2. #977
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    John Walker is not Steve Rogers. This is not an insult it is a statement of fact. They are completely different people. They have had completely different life experiences.

    Steve was...as they used to say...a sickly boy. But his heart was bigger than any other. He stood up for what he believed and took his lumps for it. When he got the serum he had no real military experience except for basic training...which only lasts a few weeks. He had the smarts to think outside the box (getting the flag) and the courage to sacrafice (throw himself on a grenade). But he had not seen the real horrors of war and was not changed by them.

    John was one of those guys who had good...if not great...genes. He excelled physically and academically his whole life. He was trained over many years at West Point to think and act like a professional soldier. He was in Spec Ops (would not be surprised to hear 1st SFOD-D) for years and was a tier one pipe hitter. He himself mentions the dark and nasty things he as done and how they affected him. And after he got the Shield tried to work with others. Shows up in Munich and helps Sam and Bucky, offers them a ride and basically they flip him the bird and tell him to F off. He gets Bucky out of jail and offers to team up again...same response. Then when he tells them to stay out of his way he gets treated like the bad guy. He shows up again in Latvia after Bucky aided in Zemo's escape and still wants to work together and is again spit on. The Dora show up and again...John acts as the reasonable one...and again treated like crap. He takes the serum and that is the man that is enhanced. The stone cold operator who kills the enemies of his country and is sick of being treated like crap by the people he wants to work with to accomplish the mission.

  3. #978
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk if John can be a hero after what he did. But if they can ok psycho Hawkeye, they can ok US Agent
    The Avengers have been fine with psycho Ronin-Clint, terrorist Wanda, friggin Bruce Banner, criminal Scott Lang, Widow and her ledger full of red.....none of them, really, have clean records (how many people have died for Tony's ego and bank account?) and thus far John hasn't done anything as bad as most of those guys.

    Honestly, his biggest crime (as far as Sam and Buck go) seems to be wearing the Cap uniform. And that's something they're not likely to forgive regardless of what John does or doesn't do.

    Personally I'm hoping to see John end up as USAgent, occupying a more ambiguous role in the MCU; neither hero nor villain, but a government agent capable of holding his own against heroes and villains alike. A more....gray.....character, sympathetic enough to not make audiences hate him outright, but not likeable enough for audiences to root for him. I suspect John will spiral into madness and straight villainy over the remaining episodes, possibly to never be seen again....but I'm hoping for better, and that he sticks around and shows up at least occasionally.

    He'd be a solid choice for a "Rick Flagg" role in Thunderbolts, honestly. We've all said we wanna see Bucky in that position, and he'd be my first choice, but I wouldn't be hurt if John ended up in such a spot either.
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-15-2021 at 05:54 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  4. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The Avengers have been fine with psycho Ronin-Clint, terrorist Wanda, friggin Bruce Banner, criminal Scott Lang, Widow and her ledger full of red.....none of them, really, have clean records (how many people have died for Tony's ego and bank account?) and thus far John hasn't done anything as bad as most of those guys.

    Honestly, his biggest crime (as far as Sam and Buck go) seems to be wearing the Cap uniform. And that's something they're not likely to forgive regardless of what John does or doesn't do.

    Personally I'm hoping to see John end up as USAgent, occupying a more ambiguous role in the MCU; neither hero nor villain, but a government agent capable of holding his own against heroes and villains alike. A more....gray.....character, sympathetic enough to not make audiences hate him outright, but not likeable enough for audiences to root for him. I suspect John will spiral into madness and straight villainy over the remaining episodes, possibly to never be seen again....but I'm hoping for better, and that he sticks around and shows up at least occasionally.
    His biggest crime is killing a man who surrendered. So he still he needs to recognize that. But the Avengers have been ok with some questionable activities.

  5. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The Avengers have been fine with psycho Ronin-Clint, terrorist Wanda, friggin Bruce Banner, criminal Scott Lang, Widow and her ledger full of red.....none of them, really, have clean records (how many people have died for Tony's ego and bank account?) and thus far John hasn't done anything as bad as most of those guys.

    Honestly, his biggest crime (as far as Sam and Buck go) seems to be wearing the Cap uniform. And that's something they're not likely to forgive regardless of what John does or doesn't do.

    Personally I'm hoping to see John end up as USAgent, occupying a more ambiguous role in the MCU; neither hero nor villain, but a government agent capable of holding his own against heroes and villains alike. A more....gray.....character, sympathetic enough to not make audiences hate him outright, but not likeable enough for audiences to root for him. I suspect John will spiral into madness and straight villainy over the remaining episodes, possibly to never be seen again....but I'm hoping for better, and that he sticks around and shows up at least occasionally.

    He'd be a solid choice for a "Rick Flagg" role in Thunderbolts, honestly. We've all said we wanna see Bucky in that position, and he'd be my first choice, but I wouldn't be hurt if John ended up in such a spot either.
    I have said this quite often about 616 John...he should be a NCIS Leroy Jethro Gibbs or a Fugitive/U.S. Marshals Sam Gerard type of guy.

  6. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I have said this quite often about 616 John...he should be a NCIS Leroy Jethro Gibbs or a Fugitive/U.S. Marshals Sam Gerard type of guy.
    What kind of character is Gibbs?

  7. #982
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

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  8. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    What kind of character is Gibbs?
    Marine Corp Gunnery Sergeant Scout Sniper not to be $#$*ed with.

    There was a recent episode that had flashback to when he was younger and taken by a criminal who worked him over and knocked one of his teeth out. 30-35 years later he brings the guy in for interrogation and throws the tooth on the table.

  9. #984
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The Avengers have been fine with psycho Ronin-Clint, terrorist Wanda, friggin Bruce Banner, criminal Scott Lang, Widow and her ledger full of red.....none of them, really, have clean records (how many people have died for Tony's ego and bank account?) and thus far John hasn't done anything as bad as most of those guys.

    Honestly, his biggest crime (as far as Sam and Buck go) seems to be wearing the Cap uniform. And that's something they're not likely to forgive regardless of what John does or doesn't do.

    Personally I'm hoping to see John end up as USAgent, occupying a more ambiguous role in the MCU; neither hero nor villain, but a government agent capable of holding his own against heroes and villains alike. A more....gray.....character, sympathetic enough to not make audiences hate him outright, but not likeable enough for audiences to root for him. I suspect John will spiral into madness and straight villainy over the remaining episodes, possibly to never be seen again....but I'm hoping for better, and that he sticks around and shows up at least occasionally.

    He'd be a solid choice for a "Rick Flagg" role in Thunderbolts, honestly. We've all said we wanna see Bucky in that position, and he'd be my first choice, but I wouldn't be hurt if John ended up in such a spot either.
    Yeah... if they are still giving Karli a chance and all that jazz... Walker ain't nearly as bad as her.

    Just needs the shield taken away due to its symblism.

    Looks like it is going to have to be "taken" away isntead of given away thoguh lol
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  10. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Marine Corp Gunnery Sergeant Scout Sniper not to be $#$*ed with.

    There was a recent episode that had flashback to when he was younger and taken by a criminal who worked him over and knocked one of his teeth out. 30-35 years later he brings the guy in for interrogation and throws the tooth on the table.
    I see. As long as he's not one of those I don't play by the rules type law enforcement guys. Idk if that fits the theme of the show

  11. #986
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I see. As long as he's not one of those I don't play by the rules type law enforcement guys. Idk if that fits the theme of the show
    He has been and while NCIS has been better than some shows in showing that there are consequences for that approach, it still largely lionizes it for the protagonists.

  12. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    He has been and while NCIS has been better than some shows in showing that there are consequences for that approach, it still largely lionizes it for the protagonists.
    That's what I'm not a fan of. It seems FaWS is somewhat against that too

  13. #988
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    That's what I'm not a fan of. It seems FaWS is somewhat against that too
    It's absolute copaganda television, though it's largely earned its ratings dominance by consistent long-form storytelling with its characters for the last 18 years, all within procedural bounds.

  14. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Yeah... if they are still giving Karli a chance and all that jazz... Walker ain't nearly as bad as her.

    Just needs the shield taken away due to its symblism.

    Looks like it is going to have to be "taken" away isntead of given away thoguh lol
    I mean, Walker's still basically doing his job trying to stop terrorists. His methods just conflict with how Sam wants to handle it because he sympathizes with Karli.

    He killed a terrorist that was surrendering, which was bad, but the guy he killed was also a Super Soldier and a walking weapon so...

    Of course, he was also set off by them killing his best friend when they were trying to kill him.

  15. #990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    It's absolute copaganda television, though it's largely earned its ratings dominance by consistent long-form storytelling with its characters for the last 18 years, all within procedural bounds.
    Copaganda exaggerates the threats then makes everyone feel safe. I admit I like some cop shows, but the pattern is evident.

    Maybe that's why the MCU hasn't dealt with streer level stuff that much, at least in the movies

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