Falcon And Winter Soldier

[Captain Craig]

Sooo many pages to read. I'll just say this and I'm sure it was said already.

I can't be the only one who thought Lemar might still have been alive. In a medically induced coma or some such and later given that last dose of Power Broker SS serum.
Battlestar, we barely got to know you.

I did read where apparently Countess, as surprising a cameo/intro as that was she was to first appear in the Black Widow film.

[CosmiComic]

Sooo many pages to read. I'll just say this and I'm sure it was said already.

I can't be the only one who thought Lemar might still have been alive. In a medically induced coma or some such and later given that last dose of Power Broker SS serum.
Battlestar, we barely got to know you.

I did read where apparently Countess, as surprising a cameo/intro as that was she was to first appear in the Black Widow film.

Yeah, I thought they'd keep him around

[inisideguy]

Wandavision was a mystery show. It wasn't until the second to lsat episode did they actually explain WTF was going on

So naturally, each episode lead to more and more speculation. Which is why the speculation got out of control with fan theoris (MEPHISTO!!!)

hell... speculating about wandavision may have been more enjoyable than the actual show lol

Fal/WS is standard MCU comic book stuff.

Yea the falcon and the winter soldier is pretty standard marvel stuff. Except how it is talking about race and social issues. Disney hasn't really gone near this deep on this stuff before. So in that sense it is really different.

[OopsIdiditagain]

I really can't take Carly seriously as an intimidating villain. This is all I see when she's in the same scene as Sam and Bucky:

[Lou_Kayge]

I really can't take Carly seriously as an intimidating villain. This is all I see when she's in the same scene as Sam and Bucky:

That's the whole point. Hiding in plain sight.

[Ascended]

So, we're on our finale week, and this thread doesn't have even half of the number of pages as the WandaVision thread. Are people less excited for the show here or, due to WandaVision's more mysterious nature, the show just naturally generated more conversation?

Gotta agree with the others saying it's probably just the fact that Wandavision was a mystery.

Yea the falcon and the winter soldier is pretty standard marvel stuff. Except how it is talking about race and social issues. Disney hasn't really gone near this deep on this stuff before. So in that sense it is really different.

I'm really hoping they go all-in with these conversations for the final episode. I appreciate that they've dipped a toe into the topics, which is more than they usually do, but thus far I feel like there's a lot being unsaid too. Push the envelope, yknow? We all know Sam's got stronger opinions than he's shared, let's hear them! I know that the snowflakes on the right are already losing their sh*t over what little has been said, but those folks are all noise with no substance or impact so I'm not really concerned with their delicate sensibilities or their faux outrage.

I'd normally be worried that the show would just parrot some heavy handed nonsense with all the grace of a sledgehammer, but these guys have handled Isaiah well enough, I feel like they could dive deeper into the commentary without sliding into propaganda.

[CosmiComic]

Gotta agree with the others saying it's probably just the fact that Wandavision was a mystery.



I'm really hoping they go all-in with these conversations for the final episode. I appreciate that they've dipped a toe into the topics, which is more than they usually do, but thus far I feel like there's a lot being unsaid too. Push the envelope, yknow? We all know Sam's got stronger opinions than he's shared, let's hear them! I know that the snowflakes on the right are already losing their sh*t over what little has been said, but those folks are all noise with no substance or impact so I'm not really concerned with their delicate sensibilities or their faux outrage.

I'd normally be worried that the show would just parrot some heavy handed nonsense with all the grace of a sledgehammer, but these guys have handled Isaiah well enough, I feel like they could dive deeper into the commentary without sliding into propaganda.

But I thought all those right wing alpha males were tough and could handle free speech!

Most of the time, when people complain about stuff being heavy handed, it never really is, at least from what I've seen. Poorly done, yeah, but not heavy handed. Being obvious isn't inherently wrong, and being subtle isn't inherently right either

[inisideguy]

Gotta agree with the others saying it's probably just the fact that Wandavision was a mystery.



I'm really hoping they go all-in with these conversations for the final episode. I appreciate that they've dipped a toe into the topics, which is more than they usually do, but thus far I feel like there's a lot being unsaid too. Push the envelope, yknow? We all know Sam's got stronger opinions than he's shared, let's hear them! I know that the snowflakes on the right are already losing their sh*t over what little has been said, but those folks are all noise with no substance or impact so I'm not really concerned with their delicate sensibilities or their faux outrage.

I'd normally be worried that the show would just parrot some heavy handed nonsense with all the grace of a sledgehammer, but these guys have handled Isaiah well enough, I feel like they could dive deeper into the commentary without sliding into propaganda.

I get what you are saying. I think they are doing a pretty good job at it. One aspect and I don't know if anyone has noticed this is I wish Sam and Bucky would have had a conversation about what it was like in Bucky's day. He doesn't say anything. He lived it. He saw all of it. He saw some of the worst of it. But he hasn't really said anything. Having his perspective on what he saw and what he thought would be really interesting.


Bucky grew up in a segregated society. His whole life up until he "died" he experienced all of it first hand. But he just kind of keeps his mouth shut.

[steel_atlas]

I find peoples reaction to Walker interesting.

I remember in Saving Private Ryan when they shot the surrendering German, shitty but War is Hell.

I remember in Rogue 1 when they shot a wounded and unarmed stormtrooper, isnt that a war crime and I didnt see any articles bring it up.

But Walker is clearly a sociopath stand in for murderous police when he kills a terrorist who moments before killed his friend and was trying to kill him.

[inisideguy]

I find peoples reaction to Walker interesting.

I remember in Saving Private Ryan when they shot the surrendering German, shitty but War is Hell.

I remember in Rogue 1 when they shot a wounded and unarmed stormtrooper, isnt that a war crime and I didnt see any articles bring it up.

But Walker is clearly a sociopath stand in for murderous police when he kills a terrorist who moments before killed his friend and was trying to kill him.

I think its more than that. Walker also tried to decapatate the Falcon and Bucky after that. Walker has issues. I wouldn't classify him as a straight sociopath. But he has major problems.

[Frontier]

I find peoples reaction to Walker interesting.

I remember in Saving Private Ryan when they shot the surrendering German, shitty but War is Hell.

I remember in Rogue 1 when they shot a wounded and unarmed stormtrooper, isnt that a war crime and I didnt see any articles bring it up.

But Walker is clearly a sociopath stand in for murderous police when he kills a terrorist who moments before killed his friend and was trying to kill him.

I remember watching how many Droids raising their hand in surrender and that didn't have any weapons got murked by Clones in the Clone Wars.

But I guess it didn't matter because they're "clankers."

[Ascended]

But I thought all those right wing alpha males were tough and could handle free speech!

Only when it benefits them, apparently. But the other side is just as bad when it comes to this too (I have nothing but loathing for both parties at this point, for various reasons). But alas, this isn't the place for political discourse so I'm gonna just leave it at that.

Most of the time, when people complain about stuff being heavy handed, it never really is, at least from what I've seen. Poorly done, yeah, but not heavy handed. Being obvious isn't inherently wrong, and being subtle isn't inherently right either

That's true, and a good point. My word choice might not have been the best there, but I think you get what I'm putting down. I want Marvel to tackle these issues, but I want them to do it well, intelligently, and with a mind towards exploring the issue and not just sharing their opinion. Even when I agree, I'm always big on presenting a strong argument and not just going for the cheap, knee-jerk emotional response, yknow?

I expect the last episode will mostly just be fighting and explosions; it *is* a MCU product after all, and if Wandavision spent their last episode on a giant fight I doubt this show will be any different. But we'll see in a few days!

I get what you are saying. I think they are doing a pretty good job at it. One aspect and I don't know if anyone has noticed this is I wish Sam and Bucky would have had a conversation about what it was like in Bucky's day. He doesn't say anything. He lived it. He saw all of it. He saw some of the worst of it. But he hasn't really said anything. Having his perspective on what he saw and what he thought would be really interesting.

Bucky grew up in a segregated society. His whole life up until he "died" he experienced all of it first hand. But he just kind of keeps his mouth shut.

Damned fine point. I've been wondering about that too. Honestly I think Bucky's worldview, especially on things like this, is probably too weird and messed up to properly convey without some kind of huge, episode long monologue. And given how easily things can be misconstrued, it's probably better for him to just keep his mouth shut.

I remember watching how many Droids raising their hand in surrender and that didn't have any weapons got murked by Clones in the Clone Wars.

But I guess it didn't matter because they're "clankers."

I've always been curious/uncomfortable with droids and their (lack of) rights. And as far as I know, at no point in Star Wars history has droid rights ever been a major issue; not the Old Republic, nor the New, certainly not the Empire. Maybe I just missed it?

[inisideguy]

Only when it benefits them, apparently. But the other side is just as bad when it comes to this too (I have nothing but loathing for both parties at this point, for various reasons). But alas, this isn't the place for political discourse so I'm gonna just leave it at that.



That's true, and a good point. My word choice might not have been the best there, but I think you get what I'm putting down. I want Marvel to tackle these issues, but I want them to do it well, intelligently, and with a mind towards exploring the issue and not just sharing their opinion. Even when I agree, I'm always big on presenting a strong argument and not just going for the cheap, knee-jerk emotional response, yknow?

I expect the last episode will mostly just be fighting and explosions; it *is* a MCU product after all, and if Wandavision spent their last episode on a giant fight I doubt this show will be any different. But we'll see in a few days!



Damned fine point. I've been wondering about that too. Honestly I think Bucky's worldview, especially on things like this, is probably too weird and messed up to properly convey without some kind of huge, episode long monologue. And given how easily things can be misconstrued, it's probably better for him to just keep his mouth shut.



I've always been curious/uncomfortable with droids and their (lack of) rights. And as far as I know, at no point in Star Wars history has droid rights ever been a major issue; not the Old Republic, nor the New, certainly not the Empire. Maybe I just missed it?

Yea maybe it could be misconstrued. I just think you could have someone liked bucks perspective on why he thinks sam should get the shield. It would be more than just sam you should have the shield. If he was a little more articulate about what he saw when he was growing up and was a young man and how things have changed in some area. It would have been an interesting conversation. But on the other hand I can see why Disney would want to try and avoid this particular subject regarding Bucky and when he grew up.

[CosmiComic]

They tried to point out droid rights in Solo and a bunch of anti-SJWs complained about it, from what I remember

Tbh, I always get surprised when someone says they don't want it to end in a big battle

[Ascended]

Yea maybe it could be misconstrued. .

Aren't most things, these days?

I agree with you though, it'd be a fascinating character piece to get into Bucky's head with this. Does he look at all the progress we've made, and see a better world? Or does he look at all the progress we have yet to make and wonder where it went wrong and why we're still so backwards? Does he see both things simultaneously?

To have grown up in the 30's and 40's (and not be a bigot), then experience small slices of the following decades where he'd have to catch up on culture enough to slip in and out of a place and do his job, and then finally come out in the modern world (did the MCU have Obama?) and then end up in Wakanda for a couple years? Bucky's view on race is probably very unique, and not something most people would readily understand or relate to. I think it'd be fascinating to see a well done exploration of Bucky's views and opinions, but I can easily see people taking things out of context and just freaking out.

They tried to point out droid rights in Solo and a bunch of anti-SJWs complained about it, from what I remember

Tbh, I always get surprised when someone says they don't want it to end in a big battle

I honestly remember nothing of Solo. I dunno if it's worth a re-watch for this though.

And yeah, sometimes I don't need or want a big giant superhero fight at the end of a story. Hell, the first Wonder Woman film would've been much better without it (it kinda kills the whole moral and point of Diana's journey, in fact). I love my sci-fi violence as much as the next geek, but it's also okay to color outside the lines and do things differently too.