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  1. #1066
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    T'Challa probably gave them a no-kill order.
    Still shocked he wasnt name dropped at all
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  2. #1067
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    It's entirely possible he could appear, but idk if the MCU wiuld care

  3. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Still shocked he wasnt name dropped at all
    I'm not convinced they know how they want to handle T'Challa going forward yet. Better to play it safe and not close any doors or make it harder to tell whatever story they end up going with down the road.

  4. #1069
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    they have really been going out of their way to vilify Walker while trying to make the Flag Smashers sympathetic. Yet find that real hard to do considering that Karli and her crew are still just a bunch of terrorist.

  5. #1070
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegwolf View Post
    they have really been going out of their way to vilify Walker while trying to make the Flag Smashers sympathetic. Yet find that real hard to do considering that Karli and her crew are still just a bunch of terrorist.
    I dunno, I don't know if they're going so much of their way because Walker still comes across as sympathetic, just unhinged and out of control, while the Flag-Smashers are basically the same as they've always been.

  6. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Still shocked he wasnt name dropped at all
    Did they film before he passed?

  7. #1072
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I get why he did it. He wanted to give peace to Lamar's family and justify why he killed that Flag-Smasher in cold blood.

    He's in The Raft now so I guess he's in Ross's hands.

    (Cough)Thunderbolts(Cough).
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    One of my favorite parts about that scene is that you as an audience are left wondering which was the bigger factor. Is he lying first and foremost to give the Hoskins family closure? Or is he doing it because the narrative needs to be about him being the big damn hero? The scene never gives us a clear answer and it could totally go either way. Which just leaves you wanting to believe that John Walker is doing a good thing for the family of someone who mattered to him but suspecting that he's really just trying to gloss his own shine and make it, yet again, about him. It might be a glimmer of hope that there is still something decent left in the man, or it might just be another despicable action in his descent. Love the layers.

    And the fact that Lamar is black and maybe being used by a white man as a prop to make himself look like a bigger hero instead of a violent murderer just fits so well into the way the show executes Isaiah's story. There is genuine nuance and ambiguity to these characters that you just don't often see in this kind of material.
    Good points here. I took that scene the opposite of Frontier and slightly different from ZeroBG82. I felt that John's was lying to justify his actions, not spare the family pain. Him telling the family that he killed the man that killed Lamar was meant to cover up his mistake. He didn't want to face Lamar's family's anger. (Though you could tell in the scene Lamar's sister knew something was up).

    I like this idea though, that John's motives could be taken in either direction. And ultimately John is morally ambiguous. Even under my belief, that he lied to spare himself, doesn't rescind my feelings that John was caught in bad circumstances, that he tried his best, he tried to do what he thought was right, and failed. I empathize with JOhn greatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Good episode, but I feel like having the big fight first threw the pacing off, I kept waiting for the credits to roll because we'd already gotten the big battle.

    I gotta agree with whoever said the Buck-Sam-Walker fight seemed a little off.
    Thanks bro. For me, let me clarify, I felt that the fight scene was a little off due to the choreography. It seemed a little choppy, the techniques weren't clean. It tried to be an exciting scene and it was because of the drama. But the fight quality could have been better.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  8. #1073
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegwolf View Post
    they have really been going out of their way to vilify Walker while trying to make the Flag Smashers sympathetic. Yet find that real hard to do considering that Karli and her crew are still just a bunch of terrorist.
    Personally I feel like they've done a really nice job of keeping them both somewhat ambiguous. Walker has done bad things, but his reasons aren't always so obvious. You can easily ascribe relatively noble and sympathetic reasons to all of his actions, even as he seems to be spinning out of control. You can also see him as a quite sinister figure if you choose, but probably as some shade in between.

    As for the Flag Smashers, they are idealists. They genuinely want to change the world, in their minds for the better. That's admirable, and that they step up and do the work is inspiring in a broad way. Their methods are more dubious. But even then, only Karli has done anything that genuinely pushes them into the land of terrorists. They were vaguely Robin Hood-y thieves, stealing from the well stocked to supply the poor. Fighting against corporate and wealthy interests hoarding things the vulnerable need just to survive. Their sympathetic motivations make us want to side with them to an extent.

    But Karli has killed, on more than one occasion and seems increasingly heading down a path best described as unhinged. The group as a whole is letting themselves be led to war by a what appears to be a madwoman. So they are also more complicated than their ideals and their motivations. Can the ends ever justify the means, even if the means are evil?

    I am enjoying the complexity. Nobody is fully good, or fully evil. They are conflicted, and layered, and may even be lying to themselves about what they are really on about. It feels very human to me.

  9. #1074
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    To me the Flag-Smashers seem like dumb kids whose intentions are good but they don't know any better so they're lashing out.

    Granted all of them are adults so it kind of just makes them seem even worse.

  10. #1075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Good points here. I took that scene the opposite of Frontier and slightly different from ZeroBG82. I felt that John's was lying to justify his actions, not spare the family pain. Him telling the family that he killed the man that killed Lamar was meant to cover up his mistake. He didn't want to face Lamar's family's anger. (Though you could tell in the scene Lamar's sister knew something was up).

    I like this idea though, that John's motives could be taken in either direction. And ultimately John is morally ambiguous. Even under my belief, that he lied to spare himself, doesn't rescind my feelings that John was caught in bad circumstances, that he tried his best, he tried to do what he thought was right, and failed. I empathize with JOhn greatly.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Personally I feel like they've done a really nice job of keeping them both somewhat ambiguous. Walker has done bad things, but his reasons aren't always so obvious. You can easily ascribe relatively noble and sympathetic reasons to all of his actions, even as he seems to be spinning out of control. You can also see him as a quite sinister figure if you choose, but probably as some shade in between.

    As for the Flag Smashers, they are idealists. They genuinely want to change the world, in their minds for the better. That's admirable, and that they step up and do the work is inspiring in a broad way. Their methods are more dubious. But even then, only Karli has done anything that genuinely pushes them into the land of terrorists. They were vaguely Robin Hood-y thieves, stealing from the well stocked to supply the poor. Fighting against corporate and wealthy interests hoarding things the vulnerable need just to survive. Their sympathetic motivations make us want to side with them to an extent.

    But Karli has killed, on more than one occasion and seems increasingly heading down a path best described as unhinged. The group as a whole is letting themselves be led to war by a what appears to be a madwoman. So they are also more complicated than their ideals and their motivations. Can the ends ever justify the means, even if the means are evil?

    I am enjoying the complexity. Nobody is fully good, or fully evil. They are conflicted, and layered, and may even be lying to themselves about what they are really on about. It feels very human to me.
    That is the point I was making above about the difference between Steve and John. John has been operating in that morally ambiguous area for years and it affected him. He admits as much to Lemar when they are talking about taking the serum.

    I think there are some people out there that just can't get past that.

  11. #1076
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
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    I really hope Eli shows up in the next episode like I just want them to set him up like they did Tommy & Billy they got hella clout from WandaVision I want Eli's treatment in the MCU to be better than it is in the comics.

  12. #1077
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    Idk if that'll happen for Eli here considering he's not as central to the narrative, at least so far. But at least the ga is becoming more aware of him

  13. #1078
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    I very heavily suspect that La Fontaine aka Madam Hydra will appear in front on Zemo and say something like " I am putting together a team" with General Ross standing next to her at the end of next week's finale (possibly a mid-credit scene).

  14. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    That is the point I was making above about the difference between Steve and John. John has been operating in that morally ambiguous area for years and it affected him. He admits as much to Lemar when they are talking about taking the serum.

    I think there are some people out there that just can't get past that.
    That's the thing about gray areas. When there's no clear right-or-wrong answer, what do you do?

    Making things straighter makes sure that characters aren't just doing nothing.

  15. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    100%.

    If this was the end of Zemo, he'd be in a Wakandan jail.

    Taking him to the Raft is 100% setting up Thunderbolts whenever they finally pull the trigger.

    If Walker lives next episode... his ass is probaly going there too lol
    Agreed!!!!

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