Falcon And Winter Soldier

[CosmiComic]

Your point about the dominant culture being fine with assimilation as long as the conquered people assimilate into the dominant culture is true and may reflect a desire to wipe out otherness.

I could see this being a struggle for Sam in representing America, with his familiarity of how our country has oppressed people--even its own.

By and large, people are resistant to change, so the Flagsmashers have an impossible mission and seem more likely to destabilize than revolutionize.

I agree people are resistant to change, but that was also true of many struggles in the past for what we now as right. I guess we'll wait and see.

But I have a hard time believing an anti-border group is at all a more believable threat than a pro-border one, when history has shown otherwise.

You make a good point about Sam. It could be an interesting struggle for him

[Sutekh]

There's a reason there's never been a borderless kingdom in the history of the world.

2000 years ago, there had never been a nation using (representative or impartial) democracy in the world.

1000 years ago, there had never been a nation based around socialism in the world.

100 years ago, there weren't weird little island-nations and drilling-platforms-turned-microstates that existed solely to be tax havens for data pirates.

There's a reason there's never been a [nation whose origins weren't steeped in the effects of slavery, racism and colonialism] in the history of the world.

There's a reason there's never been a [nation with total gender equality] in the history of the world.

There's a reason there's never been a [nation that doesn't use currency to artificially divide people into have and have-nots] in the history of the world.

This particular line of reasoning is flawed, is what I'm saying. There's always a first time. And I think we are already seeing the effects here in America, with people defining themselves more and more by the other people and the beliefs that they identify with, than the flag that flies over the dirt they live on, or where they're mother happened to be living when she gave birth to them.

Hence crowds of people in DC flying other flags than the red, white and blue (Gadsden flags, Confederate flags, thin blue line flags, 3% flags, etc.), ready to overturn the results of an election, because *their beliefs* are more important to them than some fuzzy concept of 'nation.' And that's just one example. This country alone is teeming with individuals who identify more with their own identity group than the overall country and *all* of it's residents/citizens, and that applies to other nations as well, from former world powers like Great Britain to tiny 'new-ish' countries like Israel.

We don't have it yet but can you imagine a virtual nation where everyone is part of some specific group, like Christian or LGBT, and there are taxes to pay, rules to follow and actual services from that 'citizenship?' (Like, if being persecuted for your membership in that tribe, the 'cops' of your faction show up to help deal with it?) Chaos. Everyone would have their own 'cops' arguing jurisdiction over the defense of 'their people.'

Some people would be in all sorts of virtual countries. "I'm a Lefty! Part of the left-handed nation! I'm actually a representative and help to set policy. Also Irish, but virtual Irish, 'cause I live in New Zealand. And a Buddhist, obviously. Struggling to get our faith practises recognized and respected wherever we physically dwell."

[SecretWarrior]

2000 years ago, there had never been a nation using (representative or impartial) democracy in the world.

1000 years ago, there had never been a nation based around socialism in the world.

100 years ago, there weren't weird little island-nations and drilling-platforms-turned-microstates that existed solely to be tax havens for data pirates.

There's a reason there's never been a [nation whose origins weren't steeped in the effects of slavery, racism and colonialism] in the history of the world.

There's a reason there's never been a [nation with total gender equality] in the history of the world.

There's a reason there's never been a [nation that doesn't use currency to artificially divide people into have and have-nots] in the history of the world.

This particular line of reasoning is flawed, is what I'm saying. There's always a first time. And I think we are already seeing the effects here in America, with people defining themselves more and more by the other people and the beliefs that they identify with, than the flag that flies over the dirt they live on, or where they're mother happened to be living when she gave birth to them.

Hence crowds of people in DC flying other flags than the red, white and blue (Gadsden flags, Confederate flags, thin blue line flags, 3% flags, etc.), ready to overturn the results of an election, because *their beliefs* are more important to them than some fuzzy concept of 'nation.' And that's just one example. This country alone is teeming with individuals who identify more with their own identity group than the overall country and *all* of it's residents/citizens, and that applies to other nations as well, from former world powers like Great Britain to tiny 'new-ish' countries like Israel.

We don't have it yet but can you imagine a virtual nation where everyone is part of some specific group, like Christian or LGBT, and there are taxes to pay, rules to follow and actual services from that 'citizenship?' (Like, if being persecuted for your membership in that tribe, the 'cops' of your faction show up to help deal with it?) Chaos. Everyone would have their own 'cops' arguing jurisdiction over the defense of 'their people.'

Some people would be in all sorts of virtual countries. "I'm a Lefty! Part of the left-handed nation! I'm actually a representative and help to set policy. Also Irish, but virtual Irish, 'cause I live in New Zealand. And a Buddhist, obviously. Struggling to get our faith practises recognized and respected wherever we physically dwell."

I agree people are resistant to change, but that was also true of many struggles in the past for what we now as right. I guess we'll wait and see.

But I have a hard time believing an anti-border group is at all a more believable threat than a pro-border one, when history has shown otherwise.

You make a good point about Sam. It could be an interesting struggle for him

Like I said, there's no global, politically expedient impetus for getting rid of borders-- It certainly hasn't been brought up in this thread. Even the EU retains distinct countries, with Brexit happening on top of that. Then there's the Eastern block states returning to their historical boundaries after the fall of the USSR. It's also administratively inefficient for a number of reasons I've already pointed out.

Nationalism can be a problem and so can racism. Doesn't mean borders are going anywhere, nor should they. Force or the threat of it will always be a part of human relations because we have never been and will never be perfect. You can't ignore human nature or political reality. I don't think even an alien invasion or zombie apocalypse would change that unless there was a fundamental collapse of all institutions. Then people would just become warring tribes again.

If you want to build a political coalition to support the end of borders, I wish you the best. But let's not forget how successful racist, nationalist campaigns have been in recent years with around half of the population of each country supporting them or forget the pretexts people use to keep social services/resources out of minority communities. People don't have a good track record with undemocratic changes imposed on them either.

[CosmiComic]

yeah, "There has never been" isn't a good reason in of itself. At one point there wasn't racial equality. In fact there still isn't, But we still strive for it.

Some ideas are foolhardy, but I don't think the world as one nation can never happen

[CosmiComic]

Like I said, there's no global impetus for getting rid of borders. Even the EU retains distinct countries, with Brexit happening on top of that. Then there's the Eastern block states returning to their historical boundaries after the fall of the USSR. It's also administratively inefficient for a number of reasons I've already pointed out.

Nationalism can be a problem and so can racism. Doesn't mean borders are going anywhere, nor should they. Force or the threat of it will always be a part of human relations because we have never been and will never be perfect. You can't ignore human nature or political reality. I don't think even an alien invasion or zombie apocalypse would change that unless there was a fundamental collapse of all institutions. Then people would just become warring tribes again.

If you want to build a political coalition to support the end of borders, I wish you the best.

I don't think borders are going away anytime soon either, but that doesn't mean they're eternal

[SecretWarrior]

yeah, "There has never been" isn't a good reason in of itself. At one point there wasn't racial equality. In fact there still isn't, But we still strive for it.

Some ideas are foolhardy, but I don't think the world as one nation can never happen

There's no basis for it happening, unlike instances of racial harmony before the chattel slave trade.

A dream with no viable means of application in the real world means nothing essentially.

It's like how people say "race is just a social construct." True, but that ignores the reality race continues to play in peoples' lives despite that. I just can't ignore reality or the dark sides of human nature.

[CosmiComic]

There's no basis for it happening, unlike instances of racial harmony before the chattel slave trade.

A dream with no viable means of application in the real world means nothing essentially.

It's like how people say "race is just a social construct." True, but that ignores the reality race continues to play in peoples' lives despite that. I just can't ignore reality or the dark sides of human nature.

Well, you're right in a lot of ways, but I feel like "human nature" isn't a valid excuse. Plus, there maybe plenty of reason for a united world

Regardless, extreme pro border ideology is a real world danger, while the reverse isn't

[dswynne]

SNIP!

Hence crowds of people in DC flying other flags than the red, white and blue (Gadsden flags, Confederate flags, thin blue line flags, 3% flags, etc.), ready to overturn the results of an election, because *their beliefs* are more important to them than some fuzzy concept of 'nation.' And that's just one example. This country alone is teeming with individuals who identify more with their own identity group than the overall country and *all* of it's residents/citizens, and that applies to other nations as well, from former world powers like Great Britain to tiny 'new-ish' countries like Israel.

That's a very cynical and overly-simplistic view of things, colored by the likes of MSM, whose sole purpose is to report the worse aspects of society...for RATINGS. Very few reports were done about why there was a so-called "insurrection" at the capital, other than those reports based on the opinions of partisan journos, and why that fracas is different from the one where you had members of women's group confronting senators over their support of Judge Brett Kavanaugh's judicial confirmation. Personally? The actual problem is a failure of leadership from the top, from former President Trump's refusal to transition out of the WH to the Democratic Party leadership propensity to lambast those of the electorate that didn't vote for President Biden. All those protesters, regardless of political affiliation, are more "American" than the actual politicians and surrogates. I remember a time when you could cross the aisle for cocktails after a long, hard fought debate, when politics stayed within the borders of the United States. Those days are done, unfortunately, but not the idea that it is an American's right to protest. You know, "freedom of speech", and what not.

[dswynne]

There's no basis for it happening, unlike instances of racial harmony before the chattel slave trade.

A dream with no viable means of application in the real world means nothing essentially.

It's like how people say "race is just a social construct." True, but that ignores the reality race continues to play in peoples' lives despite that. I just can't ignore reality or the dark sides of human nature.

Which is used as a weapon, rather than be used as a "teachable moment".

[dswynne]

If they're fake radicals, why would Sam and Bucky fight them?

"Never let a crisis go to waste."

We know that Zemo wants to get rid of the idea of "heroes". What better way to do so is to set up the symbol of heroism, before tearing that symbol down? Sounds to me that John Walker will be set up for a fall to prove a point, by purposely creating an artificial threat, post-SNAP! Unfortunately, there are lot of people who are more than willing to watch the world burn within this environment...

[dswynne]

SNIP!

My only complaint is what I said before: spoilers:

Joaquin Torres being turned into yet another generic military guy in the MCU feels like a slap in the face. For a show that promised to be woke about race, they really couldn't keep the same energy for their immigrant comic book character. I think it comes off specially bad when there's been so much talk about undocumented immigrants in the US and the subhuman way they can be treated by the government. Like.... it was their chance to actually tackle an important subject here, but they just couldn't help themselves with the usual MCU military propaganda, even when they are trying to be critical of the US government. Which is not to say I didn't think the character in the show is bad. I actually liked Danny Ramirez in the role and think he works well with what he is supposed to be in this story.... it's just naming him after an undocumented immigrant superhero whose whole deal was trying to help other people like him that really irks me.

end of spoilers[/QUOTE]

Considering the format of the show, I seriously doubt that there will be an in-depth look at the backgrounds of the characters, save for Sam and Bucky. Also, there is a legacy for non-citizens that have joined the military, and have served with distinction. Calling it "MCU military propaganda" is a bit of a stretch, particularly when you had Steve AND Sam go rogue against a government policy that they felt was objectionable back in CIVIL WAR.

[CosmiComic]

That's a very cynical and overly-simplistic view of things, colored by the likes of MSM, whose sole purpose is to report the worse aspects of society...for RATINGS. Very few reports were done about why there was a so-called "insurrection" at the capital, other than those reports based on the opinions of partisan journos, and why that fracas is different from the one where you had members of women's group confronting senators over their support of Judge Brett Kavanaugh's judicial confirmation. Personally? The actual problem is a failure of leadership from the top, from former President Trump's refusal to transition out of the WH to the Democratic Party leadership propensity to lambast those of the electorate that didn't vote for President Biden. All those protesters, regardless of political affiliation, are more "American" than the actual politicians and surrogates. I remember a time when you could cross the aisle for cocktails after a long, hard fought debate, when politics stayed within the borders of the United States. Those days are done, unfortunately, but not the idea that it is an American's right to protest. You know, "freedom of speech", and what not.

I don't get what you're saying.

[CosmiComic]

Considering the format of the show, I seriously doubt that there will be an in-depth look at the backgrounds of the characters, save for Sam and Bucky. Also, there is a legacy for non-citizens that have joined the military, and have served with distinction. Calling it "MCU military propaganda" is a bit of a stretch, particularly when you had Steve AND Sam go rogue against a government policy that they felt was objectionable back in CIVIL WAR.

Sam objected to it yet seems to be ok with it now here. And I think people are right to be annoyed at the changes to this character, although it's still only the first episode.

[Snoop Dogg]

it's propaganda

[CosmiComic]

it's propaganda

What is propaganda? I'm not follow you