Falcon And Winter Soldier

[CosmiComic]

Plus, if a hero has been successful for so many years, of course others will try to use the same template. But somehow that's White genocide or some other such nonsense when PoC do it

[Ascended]

And these guys dont seem to consider the aftermath and potential benefits either.

We all know that anyone who takes over a major mantle is gonna be temporary. That's the nature of serialized comics; the OG almost always returns. Sh*t, even Invincible played with this troupe.

But as Cap, Sam got a level of exposure he never would have as Falcon, and even after Steve returned, Sam would have retained those fans. Maybe he didn't gain a mountain of rabid new fans but he certainly won over some people. How is that a bad thing?

I mean, it's kind of a bad thing that "Cap" automatically gets more effort and investment from Marvel than "Falcon" but we're talking one of their biggest, most well known IP's, so of course Cap gets more, it'd be bad business to do otherwise. And comics *do* need to push harder and invest more in their original PoC, we all f*cking know this. But let's not pretend that taking over a mantle is absolutely, no matter what, a horrible thing, or that it only has negative effects.

[CosmiComic]

And these guys dont seem to consider the aftermath and potential benefits either.

We all know that anyone who takes over a major mantle is gonna be temporary. That's the nature of serialized comics; the OG almost always returns. Sh*t, even Invincible played with this troupe.

But as Cap, Sam got a level of exposure he never would have as Falcon, and even after Steve returned, Sam would have retained those fans. Maybe he didn't gain a mountain of rabid new fans but he certainly won over some people. How is that a bad thing?

I mean, it's kind of a bad thing that "Cap" automatically gets more effort and investment from Marvel than "Falcon" but we're talking one of their biggest, most well known IP's, so of course Cap gets more, it'd be bad business to do otherwise. And comics *do* need to push harder and invest more in their original PoC, we all f*cking know this. But let's not pretend that taking over a mantle is absolutely, no matter what, a horrible thing, or that it only has negative effects.

I can see it being questioned from a point of view about PoC standing on their own, but a lot of the criticism comes from White entitlement IMO.

But I see how inherited mantles, or even just similar templates, like Hal Jordan and John Stewart, can boost visibility of PoC heroes. It's not always ideal, but considering how all the White characters have taken most of the cool powers anyway, it's not always avoidable. Still, it doesn't make the PoC heroes any less

[Immortal Weapon]

And these guys dont seem to consider the aftermath and potential benefits either.

We all know that anyone who takes over a major mantle is gonna be temporary. That's the nature of serialized comics; the OG almost always returns. Sh*t, even Invincible played with this troupe.

But as Cap, Sam got a level of exposure he never would have as Falcon, and even after Steve returned, Sam would have retained those fans. Maybe he didn't gain a mountain of rabid new fans but he certainly won over some people. How is that a bad thing?

I mean, it's kind of a bad thing that "Cap" automatically gets more effort and investment from Marvel than "Falcon" but we're talking one of their biggest, most well known IP's, so of course Cap gets more, it'd be bad business to do otherwise. And comics *do* need to push harder and invest more in their original PoC, we all f*cking know this. But let's not pretend that taking over a mantle is absolutely, no matter what, a horrible thing, or that it only has negative effects.

Didn't Sam get his own ongoing as Falcon after his run as Cap? It only lasted 8 issues if I recall. The fan retention wasn't big enough to keep it going.

[Ascended]

I can see it being questioned from a point of view about PoC standing on their own, but a lot of the criticism comes from White entitlement IMO.

I mean, we should question everything, including ourselves and our opinions (I'm a big believer on forming opinions via strong arguments and evidence). And I'm not saying that this concept doesn't have *some* measure of merit, or at least examples where it kinda plays out the way this youtuber is talking about.

But it's a dangerous game, making all-encompassing statements like this guy is. Painting a thing with a single brush and ignoring all the variances and examples that prove you wrong? That's the basis for bigotry.

Didn't Sam get his own ongoing as Falcon after his run as Cap? It only lasted 8 issues if I recall. The fan retention wasn't big enough to keep it going.

I vaguely recall Sam getting a solo? I didn't follow Steve or Sam back then (not as solo acts) and wasn't reading Avengers at the time either, so I'm not sure but I do think you're right.

And I'm not saying a stint as a Big Name Hero is automatically going to make a secondary, smaller character a big deal, or popular enough to carry a solo once they return the famous mantle to its original owner. But certainly Sam's time as Cap created new Sam fans, and if there weren't enough to carry a solo we shouldn't be surprised about that; it's the direct market and we all know how sales tend to go when you're name doesn't start with Bat- or Super- something, and a stint as a Big Name Hero, even if it's popular and goes well, isn't enough to build an entire big, solo-supporting fanbase on its own. It's not a singular solution to the "secondary character doesn't sell" problem. But it's a step in the right direction and helps increase the secondary character's profile, even after the fact.

Building up a character like Sam, who has history but has always been a minor player, usually isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. Look at Carol Danvers; ten years Marvel has been pushing her, trying to make her into a legit A-lister, and despite her film's success and her presence in tons of comics, she still struggles to stay above cancellation numbers.

[CosmiComic]

I mean, we should question everything, including ourselves and our opinions (I'm a big believer on forming opinions via strong arguments and evidence). And I'm not saying that this concept doesn't have *some* measure of merit, or at least examples where it kinda plays out the way this youtuber is talking about.

But it's a dangerous game, making all-encompassing statements like this guy is. Painting a thing with a single brush and ignoring all the variances and examples that prove you wrong? That's the basis for bigotry.

Well, bigotry is kind of a currency for a lot of anti-SJWs

I vaguely recall Sam getting a solo? I didn't follow Steve or Sam back then (not as solo acts) and wasn't reading Avengers at the time either, so I'm not sure but I do think you're right.

And I'm not saying a stint as a Big Name Hero is automatically going to make a secondary, smaller character a big deal, or popular enough to carry a solo once they return the famous mantle to its original owner. But certainly Sam's time as Cap created new Sam fans, and if there weren't enough to carry a solo we shouldn't be surprised about that; it's the direct market and we all know how sales tend to go when you're name doesn't start with Bat- or Super- something, and a stint as a Big Name Hero, even if it's popular and goes well, isn't enough to build an entire big, solo-supporting fanbase on its own. It's not a singular solution to the "secondary character doesn't sell" problem. But it's a step in the right direction and helps increase the secondary character's profile, even after the fact.

Building up a character like Sam, who has history but has always been a minor player, usually isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. Look at Carol Danvers; ten years Marvel has been pushing her, trying to make her into a legit A-lister, and despite her film's success and her presence in tons of comics, she still struggles to stay above cancellation numbers.

Why is she struggling though?

[Snoop Dogg]

Sam didn't need a solo after his Cap run because his Cap run wasn't that popular. Falcon is not a brand and the unestablished writer was not selling to shops. It was like sabotage. Sam's momentum should've continued in a team book.

[marvelprince]

Didn't Sam get his own ongoing as Falcon after his run as Cap? It only lasted 8 issues if I recall. The fan retention wasn't big enough to keep it going.

He got a new series that seemed eager to divorce him from the Cap role. Which was weird as this was his first ongoing series after that and a lot of the persons buying the book were probably residual Sam as as Cap fans.

[Frontier]

Sam didn't need a solo after his Cap run because his Cap run wasn't that popular. Falcon is not a brand and the unestablished writer was not selling to shops. It was like sabotage. Sam's momentum should've continued in a team book.

Why not a solo, though? I mean, at least let people give it a chance and give a character some solo focus.

[John Venus]

According to this Sharon was a bigger villain in the original filmed plot.

https://www.gamesradar.com/falcon-an...-make-the-cut/

Essentially Sharon rised Karli to be a child soldier and wanted to use her and the flag smashers to control the world. Their ideological differences drove them apart.

Oh wow.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

It really does.

I would like SOME explanation how a rogue CIA agent on the run managed to basically own Madripoor to this extent...

That... that's quite the shift.

Maybe there was a Powerbroker before her and she killed him/her and took over their operations?

Or they could go the James Bond route....Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, Brosnan, Craig...but fans would have a conniption over that as well.

Can you imagine that..."I don't care that Chris Evans is 97 years old and in a wheel chair...you're monsters for recasting Captain America!!!!"

I remember around the time of IM3, when asked what they would do if RD Jr, they said they would considering 'James Bond'ing' the role (that's how they said it) but I think Marvel soon realized just how beloved the actors were in their roles and that approach wouldn't work.

I believe that initially RD Jr had a better contract than every other Avenger so he got paid a lot more than the other franchise leads (this had a lot to do with him being at-risk at the time so his pay was more dependent on the films success). Then after Perlmutter was ousted, everybody got their contracts re-negotiated with better pay, more creative freedom and more concessions. RD Jr could show up in his pj's on set and Marvel was willing to spend the $$$$ to CGI an IM suit on him.

I mean, it's kind of a bad thing that "Cap" automatically gets more effort and investment from Marvel than "Falcon" but we're talking one of their biggest, most well known IP's, so of course Cap gets more, it'd be bad business to do otherwise. And comics *do* need to push harder and invest more in their original PoC, we all f*cking know this. But let's not pretend that taking over a mantle is absolutely, no matter what, a horrible thing, or that it only has negative effects.

When Kirby was writing Cap, the title was called 'Captain America & Falcon'. Even today, a title like that would generate controversy. It just says a lot about Marvel that they didn't build up on the foundation that Kirby established to make Falcon more stand alone. I'm not complaining about Sam as Cap but part of the reason why it happened is because Marvel comics didn't do more to raise his profile.

[John Venus]

Which was to save Wanda from a complete breakdown that caused her to lose consciousness. Wanda remembered her kids on her own and worked through it before comics creators forgot that happened.

That's not even gray. She was just trying to save her and that was all she could do.

Tampering with minds is an inherently a morally gray territory. Especially in it's done without the consent of the person whose mind is being tampered with.

[9th.]

I don't care if he made good points he does nothing but complain about sjw agenda .he never mentions indie black character's or current black legacy characters .let Sam fans enjoy this moment

And that's exactly why I don't take any of that reactionary bs seriously. Even if they do sprinkle a few points in there, they're just hustling for views and clicks.

[mace11]

but considering how all the White characters have taken most of the cool powers anyway,

This is not true by the way.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I prefer Sam in a solo than a teamup book. A solo is a better showcase for him as a leading man. He's been a team player for most of his career so he wouldn't stand out as much. Worst case scenario is he'll fade in the background.

An exception would be a Buddy book were he is a lead. Something like "Falcon and War Machine". Atleast I know he's gonna get something out of it.

[CosmiComic]

This is not true by the way.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong, I just meant because the White characters came first, a lot of their power sets have a lot of the more interesting powers. I hope new PoC heroes not based on existing heroes get more abilities than just basic flying, speed or strength powers, if that makes sense.