Netflix's the Sandman

[BeastieRunner]

Kat Dennings is Death in the audio book.

If you need a white woman to play her ... there you go.

Also ... you all do realize that Black Goth is a pretty big segment of Goth culture, right? Like it is probably the second biggest subgenre? AFROPUNK sales more than any other Goth brand AFAIK.

How can you look at these pictures ...





... and not see Death?

I mean, come on guys, really? She's an aspect not a person tied to a racial culture. Gaiman has ALWAYS played with stuff like this. Why is this offensive? Did we not read the same book where a major theme of it was loving people for who they are?

I hope Kirby Howell-Baptiste slays.

[phonogram12]

I read the comics as they came out and I care more about the actress being good than if it looks like an image walked off the page...

While it's true that media is focused on the young rather than the middle aged, when the middle aged demographic opinion is, " I don't care that she's a very talented actress and had great chemistry with the other actors cast...she doesn't look like the illustration!" then that opinion rightfully deserves to be ignored.

Word.

I mean, christ, there is no conspiracy to replace all redheaded characters in fiction with black people anymore than Gaiman giving in to "woke" culture. The man said himself that this was the person he saw embodying the character the most. To assume otherwise is nothing more than that - an assumption.

Like I believe someone else said, it's entirely likely that if he were to have created these characters today, he might do a few things differently (which includes the aesthetics of the characters).

[AndrewCrossett]

She makes a particularly good case, I must say. Just hang an ankh around her neck and there you go.

[Anthony W]

I mean, come on guys, really? She's an aspect not a person tied to a racial culture. Gaiman has ALWAYS played with stuff like this. Why is this offensive? Did we not read the same book where a major theme of it was loving people for who they are?

I hope Kirby Howell-Baptiste slays.

No one is saying it's offensive. Gaiman may always play with stuff like this but when it's time to get serious (and by serious I mean what appears on the merch) there is only one image that appears on all those shirts, mugs, posters, figurines, etc and it's not the alternate looks the character sometimes sports. Many find it strange that they are doing this with the second (many think most) recognizable character. They could have easily done this with any of the other siblings not named Dream or Death.

All they have done is needlessly split their fanbase and waste the goodwill this announcement should have created. This isn't like Marvel changing The Ancient One or The Mandarin due to the racial baggage those characters carried.

[thwhtGuardian]

No one is saying it's offensive. Gaiman may always play with stuff like this but when it's time to get serious (and by serious I mean what appears on the merch) there is only one image that appears on all those shirts, mugs, posters, figurines, etc and it's not the alternate looks the character sometimes sports. Many find it strange that they are doing this with the second (many think most) recognizable character. They could have easily done this with any of the other siblings not named Dream or Death.

All they have done is needlessly split their fanbase and waste the goodwill this announcement should have created. This isn't like Marvel changing The Ancient One or The Mandarin due to the racial baggage those characters carried.

They haven't split the fanbase though...it's just an opportunity to see which people are biggots and which aren't.

[AndrewCrossett]

They haven't split the fanbase though...it's just an opportunity to see which people are biggots and which aren't.

Not all people who are against this change are bigots. Some just want iconic-looking characters to stay looking iconic, especially if they are very emotionally invested in that character. They would be upset if Death were cast as a bubbly blonde woman, too.

[j9ac9k]

Not all people who are against this change are bigots. Some just want iconic-looking characters to stay looking iconic, especially if they are very emotionally invested in that character. They would be upset if Death were cast as a bubbly blonde woman, too.

No, not all are bigots, but the bigots do come out of the woodwork when these kind of casting announcements are made. Some also hide behind rationalizations (even from themselves) for why this bothers/offends/outrages them.

[Derek Metaltron]

All I will say is that it's very easy these days to shut down rational conversation about such matters by using the '___ist!' card on them. Sandman's Death has never had a live action version before unlike umpteen versions of Batman and Superman, so it's completely understandable that some people will legitimately want a more faithful version of the character. All that playing the 'Ist!'card does to people who just have legitimate critique is make them angry and defensive and seemingly confirm the other person's point. So maybe think about that.

Going by how Netflix has treated Jupiter's Legacy it's all going to be irrelevant anyway.

[BeastieRunner]

All I will say is that it's very easy these days to shut down rational conversation about such matters by using the '___ist!' card on them. Sandman's Death has never had a live action version before unlike umpteen versions of Batman and Superman, so it's completely understandable that some people will legitimately want a more faithful version of the character. All that playing the 'Ist!'card does to people who just have legitimate critique is make them angry and defensive and seemingly confirm the other person's point. So maybe think about that.

1). Death's actress' race/sexual orientation/etc. has no bearing on her performance or delivery of the character.

2). Death not being played by a white woman is about as silly as the underwear on the outside debate during Man of Steel. We don't even know what the visual look of the characters will be yet!

3). Death doesn't belong to us, the character belongs to Gaiman. He heard Death's voice in that actress. I think I will trust him over the general keyboard warrior and internet troll as he has poured his heart and soul into Sandman. He has done exceptionally well so far.

Side note: not calling you a troll in case it wasn't clear.

Going by how Netflix has treated Jupiter's Legacy it's all going to be irrelevant anyway.

Sandman is being produced and managed by Heinberg, Gaiman, and David S. Goyer via DC Entertainment and Warner Bros.

Jupiter's Legacy was initially produced by Steven S. DeKnight, Lorenzo di Bonaventura & Dan McDermott via Di Bonaventura Pictures, DeKnight Productions, and Millarworld Productions. DeKnight departed the series as showrunner over creative differences in the midst of production and Sang Kyu Kim stepped in. Millar has alluded that the cancellation was on him and that they will return to the series later with a better, more streamlined team.

Apples and oranges if you ask me.

Heinberg, Gaiman, Goyer, DC, & WB have a WAAAAY better track record and aren't newbies unlike the team that worked on Jupiter's Legacy.

If anything Millarworld just learned a tough, $200M lesson about not working with embattled production companies.

[Anthony W]

They haven't split the fanbase though...it's just an opportunity to see which people are biggots and which aren't.

I have a mental image of Gaiman jumping out from behind a bush and shouting "Gotcha!" when someone questions the Death casting.

That makes laugh.

But yeah, it splits the fanbase.

[skyvolt2000]

Not all people who are against this change are bigots. Some just want iconic-looking characters to stay looking iconic, especially if they are very emotionally invested in that character. They would be upset if Death were cast as a bubbly blonde woman, too.

The loud and toxic vocal are. Along with some who NEVER read Sandman.

As we have constantly seen put a POC- MAINLY a black person-the line starts to the left of those who take issue with it.

If it was a blond white woman-nobody would care. It's dye her hair.

It boils down to not wanting black folks in what they view as something that "belongs" to them. Even if you try to educate them. See Star Wars-we have black Jedis, yet Finn bought out every troll known to man.

Would people be okay with it if they digitally bleach her skin chalk white?

I think they would have to do that no matter the actress if they really wanted her to look like Death.

[BeastieRunner]

Practically none of the "shouty people" (I like Gaiman's term) have read the books.

Not sure how you split a fanbase when a large swath of the people that hate the casting of an enby and black woman have never read the source material. At best, they're people that have done a quick read of the wiki page and think they know what it's about. They see Goth woman that is translucent white and assume that means she's white. If her skin was blue or green, would it really change the words and themes and the motives of Death? No. Again ... we haven't even seen the visual of the series ... what if they do some cool CG to everyone in Endless form? Or makeup? etc. Even if they didn't ... the Endless are not property of any certain culture. They play in all of them through out the stories ... African, Sumerian, American, British, alien even.

The Endless have no race.

Desire was enby before non-binary was a thing.

Not sure how somebody who is a fan of the material given the themes and plots would have a problem with the sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. of any of the actors.

You're very sorely missing the point of the series if you're in that boat. Perhaps try reading it?

If you're having such a visceral reaction to a black woman playing a raceless aspect of reality character maybe take a page out of Morpheus' book? Take a look inward and think about why you are reacting that way.

[thwhtGuardian]

Not all people who are against this change are bigots. Some just want iconic-looking characters to stay looking iconic, especially if they are very emotionally invested in that character. They would be upset if Death were cast as a bubbly blonde woman, too.

If it's just an initial reaction of disappointment it may not be bigotry...but when the author says he loves who they cast and talks about why and they still complain? Yeah that goes beyond that and they need to look at why they have that bias.

I have a mental image of Gaiman jumping out from behind a bush and shouting "Gotcha!" when someone questions the Death casting.

That makes laugh.

But yeah, it splits the fanbase.

It doesn't.

This is a book about shifting identities, embracing change and equality, so if you loved this series then those values are important to you and those values are the antithesis of the negative reactions voiced here and elsewhere. It's like saying you're a fan of Superman on one hand and then saying you support detention facilities at the border...Superman is the ultimate immigrant story and if you don't get that and feel strongly about those values then you weren't really a fan of Superman.

[j9ac9k]

Would people be okay with it if they digitally bleach her skin chalk white?

I think they would have to do that no matter the actress if they really wanted her to look like Death.

The reason I asked was in response to some posters discussing how the actress's dark skin color contradicted the b/w design of the character.

[BeastieRunner]

The reason I asked was in response to some posters discussing how the actress's dark skin color contradicted the b/w design of the character.

The easy, less-budget breaking method (and to make it unique from the books) would be to invert that.