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  1. #1
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    Default Pitch a Direction: Roy Harper

    My proposal: Roy as an agent of Checkmate or as a free lance agent. Focuses on his relationship with Lian, Artemis and Jade.

    What are your ideas? Please avoid trolling.

  2. #2

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    I thought of him opening up a security business with some old friends from his Titans days. It's a workplace drama like X-factor and SWORD. I wanna use Kole and Gnnark for some reason.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Roy goes back to Arizona and reconnects w. his mentor Brave Bow’s ‘Tachini' tribe.
    He basically straddles both worlds and becomes the official hero of the South West/Four Corners. Between Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah he’s got a lot of different adventuring possibilities.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    The story would essentially be that of the bluest blue collar superhero. Roy doesn't have a fancy cave, expensive high-tech equipment, a rogues gallery full of psychos who want him dead, or a secret identity. What he has is a mortgage, a truck that needs work, a house that leaks, a job with crappy hours, and a little girl who is his entire universe.

    I'd bring Lian back lickety split; first issue first page first panel. Literally just drop her death like a bad dream.

    Roy would work for Argus, or whoever ends up being the big SHIELD knock off if/when Bendis finishes his Leviathan stuff. Being a superhero is great but it doesn't put food on the table and Roy's got bills to pay. He wouldn't hold any major position within Argus (or whatever group) but he'd lead a squad of troops he'd be responsible for (which helps introduce new supporting cast members, maybe a new member of the Rock family?). His missions would be action-oriented Mission Impossible type things; sneaking around, taking out bad guys, more "action hero" than "super spy" (which is a role my head canon reserves for Nightwing) or "superhero."

    He'd have a house in Arizona, on the Navajo rez he grew up on (which gives us some familiar faces in the supporting cast). This also gives us a chance to explore a culture comics far too often misinterpret or stereotype.

    Artemis would be Roy's live-in nanny and Lian's aunt and yes I'm stealing this from Young Justice (sorry not sorry). She'd moonlight as Tigress, though that wouldn't be a focus for her character.

    I'd do the whole "in and out" thing with Cheshire for a minute, but fairly quickly have her give up the life of an assassin. So Roy ends up back with his ex, who's wanted by the people he works for (poker night becomes much, much more complex) and who has assassins sent after her occasionally. Can Jade really leave the Life behind? Will Ra's and the League of Assassins let her? Or Argus and the League for that matter? And how does that affect Roy's relationships with his former Titans? There's little question the whole thing won't end in flames, but the real question is how long Roy can keep it going and how bad it gets when things finally come apart.

    Roy and Ollie would have a "good" relationship, by their standards, but it'd still be more than a little tense and difficult. Dinah would pop in to visit on a regular basis, and Jason Todd would swing by so often he'd almost be part of the supporting cast.

    The book would focus far more on the family drama and Roy's life than it would military-esque super violence of hero-ing.

    Oh, and Roy would go by Arsenal in the field and use a wide range of weapons. No more of this Red Arrow foolishness.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The story would essentially be that of the bluest blue collar superhero. Roy doesn't have a fancy cave, expensive high-tech equipment, a rogues gallery full of psychos who want him dead, or a secret identity. What he has is a mortgage, a truck that needs work, a house that leaks, a job with crappy hours, and a little girl who is his entire universe.

    I'd bring Lian back lickety split; first issue first page first panel. Literally just drop her death like a bad dream.

    Roy would work for Argus, or whoever ends up being the big SHIELD knock off if/when Bendis finishes his Leviathan stuff. Being a superhero is great but it doesn't put food on the table and Roy's got bills to pay. He wouldn't hold any major position within Argus (or whatever group) but he'd lead a squad of troops he'd be responsible for (which helps introduce new supporting cast members, maybe a new member of the Rock family?). His missions would be action-oriented Mission Impossible type things; sneaking around, taking out bad guys, more "action hero" than "super spy" (which is a role my head canon reserves for Nightwing) or "superhero."

    He'd have a house in Arizona, on the Navajo rez he grew up on (which gives us some familiar faces in the supporting cast). This also gives us a chance to explore a culture comics far too often misinterpret or stereotype.

    Artemis would be Roy's live-in nanny and Lian's aunt and yes I'm stealing this from Young Justice (sorry not sorry). She'd moonlight as Tigress, though that wouldn't be a focus for her character.

    I'd do the whole "in and out" thing with Cheshire for a minute, but fairly quickly have her give up the life of an assassin. So Roy ends up back with his ex, who's wanted by the people he works for (poker night becomes much, much more complex) and who has assassins sent after her occasionally. Can Jade really leave the Life behind? Will Ra's and the League of Assassins let her? Or Argus and the League for that matter? And how does that affect Roy's relationships with his former Titans? There's little question the whole thing won't end in flames, but the real question is how long Roy can keep it going and how bad it gets when things finally come apart.

    Roy and Ollie would have a "good" relationship, by their standards, but it'd still be more than a little tense and difficult. Dinah would pop in to visit on a regular basis, and Jason Todd would swing by so often he'd almost be part of the supporting cast.

    The book would focus far more on the family drama and Roy's life than it would military-esque super violence of hero-ing.

    Oh, and Roy would go by Arsenal in the field and use a wide range of weapons. No more of this Red Arrow foolishness.
    I know Jason really kinda stole Roy from Dick, but this has me thinking that trying to draw some similarities with their time at Argus and Spyral along with some Cheshire drama would make for a good Old Friends, New Enemies redux.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Dad and daughter shenanigans. I don't really care about the superhero/vigilante part, a lot of heroes got that covered. Not many are dads and daughters. So that's the A-plot. The B plot can be whatever.

  7. #7
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Anybody remember back in the day when Roy was in a rock band?



    Maybe if Dinah (Black Canary) goes back to being a singer, Roy could be part of her backup-band?

  8. #8
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    This may sound predictable, but I’d adapt most of the Red Arrow Roy’s status quo from Young Justice Season 3, complete with job as a security company manager, single dad, and complicated interaction with a more mellow Cheshire.

    I would also maybe adapt the idea of him being a former alcoholic like in the New 52 (including Killer Croc as his sponsor) for a more sedate human struggle, and while I’m thinking of antagonists for him... I almost think making Deadshot something like a professional enemy with an oddly friendly rapport would be fun (particularly as another single dad - just imagine a story where they share babysitter contacts).
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  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    My proposal: Roy as an agent of Checkmate or as a free lance agent. Focuses on his relationship with Lian, Artemis and Jade.

    What are your ideas? Please avoid trolling.
    Lian, yes. Artemis and Jade - not so much. I really favored the earlier dynamic with Jade where she was really in love with him and he really wasn't so much in love with her. I''m completely in the dark over his relationship with Artemis in the comics.

    Freelance is better than Checkmate to me - I'm not one for the anti-hero vibe or morally gray and organizations do have such a tendency to go outright evil.

    Roy goes back to Arizona and reconnects w. his mentor Brave Bow’s ‘Tachini' tribe.
    He basically straddles both worlds and becomes the official hero of the South West/Four Corners. Between Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah he’s got a lot of different adventuring possibilities.
    I know he was raised there, but I don't think having a white guy as a native representative is a good idea. I guess it could work. Would have to to deal with poverty (hope that's not too GA-flavored) and alcoholism at lot. What's the status of the reservation? Some have huge swathes without access to running water and electricity. Is he in a town or out in the middle of nowhere? I have to admit, while I can intellectually understand someone having that sort of connection to their roots, I have a lot of difficulty really grasping a parent taking their child back there to raise when they had other options, knowing that would be fewer options for that child, and a higher likelihood of poverty.

    The story would essentially be that of the bluest blue collar superhero. Roy doesn't have a fancy cave, expensive high-tech equipment, a rogues gallery full of psychos who want him dead, or a secret identity. What he has is a mortgage, a truck that needs work, a house that leaks, a job with crappy hours, and a little girl who is his entire universe.
    I think about that. But I do feel either Ollie has to be a asshole (which I hate so much - what happened to him over the decades is a great disappointment to me) or be broke himself to not help, and that while Roy might not accept it for himself, if it reached a point where finances were strained enough it was detrimental to his child, he would.

    I'd bring Lian back lickety split; first issue first page first panel. Literally just drop her death like a bad dream.
    Sounds great to me.

    Artemis would be Roy's live-in nanny and Lian's aunt and yes I'm stealing this from Young Justice (sorry not sorry). She'd moonlight as Tigress, though that wouldn't be a focus for her character.
    Oh, I hate that. It's her essentially giving up having her own life to raise someone else's child. It makes that her primary value, while the actual parent gets to do way more exciting things and has parenthood only a small part of his life. Plus, it plays into a stereotype I absolutely freaking hate where men can't raise a child by themselves, and need full-time care for them, while female characters would be vilified for that. I want Roy as Lian's primary caregiver. Daycare, sure. A nanny...only if he has money, and even then he does the heavy-lifting and emotional care. He may marry someday and have a co-parent, but definitely not something where he has an employee or female relative doing so. Especially if this relative expected to basically stay and be "mom" for 10+ years and then won't have much savings, any earning capacity (even if she had a degree or skills, a decade out of the workforce hurts), and (depending on how old she is when she starts and leaves), may not ever have kids herself. She's moved and given up her own home and friends and such to take care of Lian. And then when the child is grown or at least old enough not to need a nanny, what does she do?
    Last edited by Tzigone; 02-01-2021 at 06:52 PM.

  10. #10
    Boisterously Confused
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    Roy is DC's angry bad boy. Robin's Lesser Copy. Abandoned Sidekick. Junkie. Amputee. Use it all.

    Arsenal goes rogue. He commits crimes, beats the piss out of Bronze Tiger (or a suitable alternative), and disappears into the international underworld.

    Then we find out he's undercover, working for The Wall. He's basically doing The Green Hornet: posing as a rising supervillain while destroying threats under the guise of competing with them. Best part: even Batman's hoodwinked.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Then we find out he's undercover, working for The Wall. He's basically doing The Green Hornet: posing as a rising supervillain while destroying threats under the guise of competing with them. Best part: even Batman's hoodwinked.
    Okay, that could be fun. Do his old friends stage interventions before trying to take him down (sure, someone could just keep the faith, but they turn bad so often, I could see them all believe it). Of course, we have to ignore all the telepaths. I'm just not happy with previously independent heroes working for organizations or other people. Especially those like the Wall, who've sometimes been very bad. I don't want them to implements carrying out the will of others. Maybe if she was one of her better selves.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Roy is DC's angry bad boy. Robin's Lesser Copy. Abandoned Sidekick. Junkie. Amputee. Use it all.

    Arsenal goes rogue. He commits crimes, beats the piss out of Bronze Tiger (or a suitable alternative), and disappears into the international underworld.

    Then we find out he's undercover, working for The Wall. He's basically doing The Green Hornet: posing as a rising supervillain while destroying threats under the guise of competing with them. Best part: even Batman's hoodwinked.
    And then, the triple cross. The Wall wants him to permanently gank some baddies as part of establishing his villain cred and eliminating his villain 'rivals,' and he's instead just making it look that way, while stashing them elsewhere, working a long con against *her* as well! (Knowing that if he didn't do these dirty deeds she wanted done, she'd just find someone with even *less* scruples to do them, who wouldn't pull his punches and avoid killing her targets!)

    Just lies within lies, until nobody is actually sure whose side he's on anymore, or if he's 'gone under too long' and this criminal underworld (and the stuff he's had to do to fit in) has started to sink in...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Lian, yes. Artemis and Jade - not so much. I really favored the earlier dynamic with Jade where she was really in love with him and he really wasn't so much in love with her. I''m completely in the dark over his relationship with Artemis in the comics.
    He doesn't have one. That was my idea for a direction.

    Freelance is better than Checkmate to me - I'm not one for the anti-hero vibe or morally gray and organizations do have such a tendency to go outright evil.
    He doesn't have to be an anti-hero to work for Checkmate.

    Oh, I hate that. It's her essentially giving up having her own life to raise someone else's child. It makes that her primary value, while the actual parent gets to do way more exciting things and has parenthood only a small part of his life. Plus, it plays into a stereotype I absolutely freaking hate where men can't raise a child by themselves, and need full-time care for them, while female characters would be vilified for that. I want Roy as Lian's primary caregiver. Daycare, sure. A nanny...only if he has money, and even then he does the heavy-lifting and emotional care. He may marry someday and have a co-parent, but definitely not something where he has an employee or female relative doing so. Especially if this relative expected to basically stay and be "mom" for 10+ years and then won't have much savings, any earning capacity (even if she had a degree or skills, a decade out of the workforce hurts), and (depending on how old she is when she starts and leaves), may not ever have kids herself. She's moved and given up her own home and friends and such to take care of Lian. And then when the child is grown or at least old enough not to need a nanny, what does she do?
    Roy needed help from babysitters like Dinah, Rose or Mia when raising Lian before. I do agree that single fathers do kind of get a bad rap but Roy's job will often take him away from Lian. Artemis helped raise Lian in the YJ show without giving up her life for it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I know Jason really kinda stole Roy from Dick, but this has me thinking that trying to draw some similarities with their time at Argus and Spyral along with some Cheshire drama would make for a good Old Friends, New Enemies redux.
    Roy worked for Checkmate for a time pre-Flashpoint. I wonder what stories they'd have gotten if that still happened while Dick worked for Spyral.

  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I know he was raised there, but I don't think having a white guy as a native representative is a good idea.
    It can be pretty awful, when done poorly. But I think it'd be fine if the story was honest and forthright and didn't treat Roy like the "white savior." DC does not have a good track record on this sorta thing, but I feel like it's not exactly hard to handle it with some respect, you just gotta have the respect in the first place.

    I think about that. But I do feel either Ollie has to be a asshole (which I hate so much - what happened to him over the decades is a great disappointment to me) or be broke himself to not help, and that while Roy might not accept it for himself, if it reached a point where finances were strained enough it was detrimental to his child, he would.
    I think you're thinking "poor" more than I am. My bad, looking at my post I sold the money thing harder than I meant to. I figure Argus, or wherever Roy ends up, pays pretty decent. I'm not seeing Roy struggling to pay for food here or anything. More that he's got a solid job but also a ton of debt from his past that he's still working on; credit cards, hospital visits, rehab payments, etc.

    He "could" go ask Ollie for some money (if Ollie has any), or Dick, or Garth, or the League. But the family isn't starving by any means, and Roy's not interested in hand outs, especially to fix the mistakes he himself made. If things got worse? Sure he'd ask. But being a little tight on cash and not being able to live are two very different things.

    Sounds great to me.
    Right? Who doesn't love Lian? No lie, my very first panel might be her shaking Roy awake, and Roy saying he had a terrible dream where she was gone. And that'd be all I would ever say about dead Lian.

    Oh, I hate that. It's her essentially giving up having her own life to raise someone else's child.
    I can see why you'd think that, looking at how I worded it (tiring day at work, apologies) but you're seeing an extreme treatment I didn't intend. More like she has a whole life of her own, including hero work as Tigress, but the story is about Roy so a chunk of Artemis' panel time goes to his narrative instead of her own (if it were her book, it'd be the reverse). She'd get her own subplots and action sequences, drama with her sister, father, other heroes, adventures with Lian, hopefully membership on some team, etc., but the hypothetical tale is Roy's. Did you watch the last season of Young Justice? I'm thinking something like that, just seen from Roy's perspective.

    I figure working for Argus means most of the time you pull a 8-5, filing paperwork, talking to contacts, whatever. Being in the military is remarkably boring most days and Argus probably isn't much different. Roy would be home more than a lot of fathers, because there's no way he accepts a job that demands otherwise. But some days you have to fly halfway across the country to take down a Kobra cell and you don't get home until 2 am. Sometimes you gotta be gone for a few days, off getting a look at Khandaq's new missile technology. Artemis as a live-in babysitter and Roy being home most nights leaves plenty of time for Artemis to do her own thing, gives her a income of her own, keeps her around her niece, sister and the Arrow family, and assuming this hypothetical includes a book for Roy, pages for her to appear in. This isn't "rich man pays someone to raise his kids for him" it's "family takes care of its own."

    And if you still dislike the idea, cool, but hopefully I explained what I see in my head a little better this time.
    Last edited by Ascended; 02-01-2021 at 09:08 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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