If Superman, Batman & Wonder Woman are the Trinity, who is #4?

[prepmaster]

We're probably going to agree to disagree.

Its hard to measure Robin's popularity. The scale of his popularity and the time period of his peak popularity are something i have not been able to gather datas on. But he does have his own niche as he was originally created to draw in younger demographics to read Batman comics. If you go with action figures then there are dolls of DC female characters that sell.

[phantom1592]

Its hard to measure Robin's popularity. The scale of his popularity and the time period of his peak popularity are something i have not been able to gather datas on. But he does have his own niche as he was originally created to draw in younger demographics to read Batman comics. If you go with action figures then there are dolls of DC female characters that sell.

But nowhere near as many. For every Harley or Wonder Woman or Black Canary doll they choose to release... we get 3-5 Robin, Glider Robin, quick change Robin etc. etc...

DC in general makes it difficult too with the rotating masks and identities. I maintain 'and Robin' is as iconic as it comes... but does it translate to any particular Robin, or just the identity? That's tough to correlate. Same with Flash. He's a founder of the league, He kickstarted the silver age... but then disappeared for 20+ years. Who's iconic? Barry? Wally? or 'The Flash?' That's one thing Wonder Woman has going for her, she's never really been replaced. I mean, she's had so many reboots and retcons they may as well have, she's no where near the 'only' Wonder Woman... but superficially theres' still just one.

Robin is a solid foundation and really the lynchpin of the entire 'child superhero' genre... but is Damian Wayne? Not so much... but 'And Robin' will always be at the tip of peoples tongues.

[Jim Kelly]

In one of my letters, that got published in a Batman mag in the late 1970s, I happened to say some nice things about Robin (Dick Grayson)--and I stupidly included my home address with my letter which got published. Within days of that comic coming out, my letter box was flooded with letters from Robin fandom. Given how these letters were written, I gather they were all twelve year old boys. By that time I was a full-grown man and I didn't feel right getting letters from twelve year old boys confessing their mad love for the Teen Wonder. So I made sure to request my home address be withheld in all my letters after that. But I was more than overwhelmed by the loyal following Dick Grayson had attracted. I never got the same avalanche of letters and requests for me to join fan clubs, with any of my previous letters that were published with my address--not for Batman, not for Superman, not for the Legion of Super-Heroes, not even for Jonah Hex. Only Robin seemed to produce this rabid reaction.

[Buried Alien]

Remember also this: when Robin (Jason Todd) was killed in 1988, it became national news. I read about it in NEWSWEEK and saw it reported on local TV news. The Flash (Barry Allen) didn't get that kind of media attention when he was killed off in COIE in 1985. Robin drew that level of interest in 1988, and Superman even more so in 1992 during the DEATH OF SUPERMAN storyline.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jabare]

Dick Grayson was created before Wonder Woman and only after Superman and Batman.

He is a renaissance hero. Not only is he the first modern sidekick. For better or worse, he's the hero that convinced the world and other heroes that it was okay to be a crime-fighting adolescent. Before there was a teenage Peter Parker, there was Dick Grayson.

Then he became the leader of the Teen Titans. Modern comic fans might not realize this, but before the Justice League and Avengers iconic runs, the X-Men and the Teen Titans were the most popular superhero team.

Not only did Dick Grayson lead one of the most iconic teams in comic book history. He also forged a new persona. No longer the sidekick, he became Nightwing, the first and most successful sidekick to hero. From hit cartoon series to hit movie series. The answer is Dick Grayson.

Also, when it comes to filling Batman's shoes, he's a natural choice. There's a new guy in Future State. I'm all for it seems like he's doing well, but DC's got to convince me he's still going to be relevant in a few years. If so, I'll update my position.

[Aramis]

As everyone is saying, the 4th is either "Flash", Aquaman, Harley, "Robin" and "Green Lantern". But, to me, it SHOULD be Aquaman. In the sense that DC should start promoting him as such!

1. Flash and Lantern are always going to be an issue, because unlike the trinity, the fandom is completely torn between Barry and Wally fans, as well as Hal, John, Kyle and Jessica's fans.

2. Robin is a similar, yet different case. Not only there are different Robins, but his popularity depends on Batman. He can't be a pillar if he's leaning on another one (and I say this as someone who loves Nightwing way, WAY more than Bruce)

3. Harley.. I adore Harley, but she's only becoming a hero quite recently, and she's mostly known in the general public as a crazy anti-hero at most, which doesn't fit right with the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman.



...Now, regarding Arthur, he doesn't only make sense for the reasons I will mention now, but also in relation to Diana herself. I will explain.

1. Arthur has been around since the 40's, same as the other three. Sure, at the beginning he was not really "Arthur Curry" (and there was a long time where he went mainly by King Orin instead of Arthur), but then again, Superman was Kal-L once, and had a mom called Mary. Aquaman, Orin or Arthur, he's still the same guy.

2. Aquaman is very well know in the general audience. Yes, maybe as a joke for a long while, but the fact remains that even my grandma knows Aquaman. And after the billion-worthy film and the charisma of Momoa, his popularity just keeps skyrocketing (which is why I can't understand why he won't have a book starting March).

3. There are no other competitors. The fandom accepts Arthur as the only (or at least main) Aquaman, as much as we accept Clark, Diana and Bruce. There is no in-war, which helps a lot.

4. Finally, what I was saying about Diana. Originally, the two big pillars of DC were Supes and Bats. Diana was included later to "balance" with the most popular, more powerful woman. The problem is that Diana is not the yellow to Clark's red and Bruce's blue. She's the gray to Clark's white and Bruce's black. She's not part of a triangle, she's the middle point between two perfect, complementing extremes. And even then, she's more similar to Clark than to Bruce.
The god vs the man... and the goddess.
The lighthearted, smiling hero vs the brooding, dark vigilante... and the other lighthearted smiling hero.
The powerhouse vs the martial artist... and the other expert fighter.
The optimist vs the pessimist... and the woman who is sometimes optimistic and sometimes pessimistic.

Always a middle point, or too similar to one of the other two. What she needs is a complement for herself. A compliment to make a perfect square in the DC top. And that is Aquaman.
Both are constantly torn between the human world and a mythical land, Themyscira vs Atlantis.
Both are royalty, one is a king and the other a princess. When one wants to rule, the other wants to get as far away from the trone as possible haha
Both are related to Greek gods, one is the daughter of Zeus and the other is the descendant of Poseidon.
Both are experts with mythical weapons, one with the sword and the other with the trident.
Both have gigantic armies at their disposition.
One is a smiling, positive, lighthearted, optimistic, pacifist hero (who still loves fighting) and the other is the brooding, edgy, sometimes agressive, permanently in-times-of-war royal hero (who just wants a normal, peaceful life).
And finally, one has a kangaroo and the other an octopus!!!!

They are too perfect for a match for DC to keep ignoring it!!

[Timothy Hunter]

Dick Grayson

[Killerbee911]

Wonder Woman was a big seller in the 1940s and 1950s, when girls and women accounted for a large percentage of the consumer base. In fact, National Romance Comics made a lot of their profits for the publisher. But since the 1960s, the publisher has done a poor job with the Amazon and they've lost that big base of female readers. Yet, in terms of merchandising, Wonder Woman always was one of their most valued properties. That's why she survived when other characters fell by the wayside.

And that's the primary reason she's in the so-called Trinity. But it's like a confession that they don't know what to do with the character--so lets use Batman and Superman to prop her up and hopefully trick our mainly middle-aged, straight, male readers into reading about a Feminist icon.

It's a top down decision as opposed to something that arises from the creative milieu. Hal and Barry hanging out together made sense, because they were both written by John Broome for Julius Schwartz, and they were new kids on the block for the super-hero revival. Likewise Superman, Batman and Robin made sense when they were being written by the likes of Bill Finger and Edmond Hamilton and edited by Jack Schiff. Chuck Dixon partnering Black Canary with Oracle in the Birds of Prey--that was a creative impulse. The "Trinity" is strictly a business decision.

Thank you now I don't have to say the blasphemous statement that Wonder Woman in the comic world isn't really a part of the "trinity". The trinity is a forced thing that isn't based on performance. I would love to see what would happen if DC push "the new trinity" for the next ten years something like Green Lantern, Flash, and Mera. To ensure the traditional fans don't revolt against the idea too much the old trinity is taken off the board for a little bit, Superman gets stuck in deep space, Batman quits the league, and Wonder Woman is Queen of the Gods or something. I would bet by end of 10 years they would be a large enough group of fans who love the "new trinity". And DC going on into the future could sell an Old trinity vs New trinity at times. Anyways if it is a performance thing they are characters who have a better comic profile and enough of general media and merchandising profile to probably edge out Wonder Woman if we are being real.

[Jabare]

Personally, I don't agree with the Trinity grouping. I think one of Marvel's strengths is that they are less reliant on that.

Anyway, for the sake of this thread. Supes, Bats, and WW are 1, 2, and 3. If you want to say Aquaman is #4 based on his movie and recent success, fine. However, if you're saying he's #4 historically, that's dead wrong. I'm a nerd. I've always liked Aquaman, from the old cartoon series to the Super Friends, but to many mainstream fans and even comic fans he was a joke before the last 15ish years. Not everyone, but a substantial number of fans. The Aquaman argument is very recent. You can argue potential all day; however, until the Aquaman movie, he wasn't beating out Dick Grayson, Flash, or Green Lantern.

Flash, regardless if it's Barry, Wally, or Jay is immensely popular and iconic. When you think of a speedster, you think of the Flash. His stories can be good to hokey. He's had his tv shows and cartoons.

Green Lantern is an interesting argument. It's a popular franchise. He was a paragon of DC's silver age and helped to grow the universe from his mythos. However, his movie did flop, but there's still a lot of potential with the characters. I always worry about Green Lantern in live-action. Sometimes, I think about how cool GL could be, the limitless potential if done right. Other times, I worry about how silly and corny he could look with his constructs and power ring, even if portrayed accurately. They'll need a great team around Green Lantern to do him or her justice in live-action. I say him or her because GL could be anyone. Fans can argue about who it should be, but unless they change things. He's part of a GL Core.


Lastly, some people are saying Robin, but the real answer is Dick Grayson. He made the role. He defined the role; Robbin was an extension of himself. He is synonymous with Batman. He's the paragon for the modern-day sidekick. Think about it. Dick is that first real shining example that spawned or inspired the rest.

Not only does he own that, but Dick Grayson also leads the premier teenage superhero team. It's not the Legion of Superheroes. It's not the Young Avengers. It's not the X-men (they are seen as adults by most nowadays). It's the Teen Titans! That's a very successful brand, often mishandled, but their iconic stories (comic, live-action, or animated) shine.

Before the New 52, Dick Grayson was considered the linchpin of the DC Universe. Loved by all, extremely talented yet down to earth, with a connection to almost everyone in the Superhero community. Batfamily, Superman family, Justice League. Young heroes, old heroes. He was a leader, a mentor, an icon, a success story. Probably, Batman's greatest success. This is fiction, but taking a kid as his sidekick could have gone wrong a million different ways, as it did with Jason Todd. Instead of failing, Dick Grayson exceeded expectations so much we had hundreds of other sidekicks and young heroes pop up in his wake.

He touches so many people and areas on several levels. He's the third superhero DC created. He's a shining example of growth and progress. Even when he's given terrible story runs, he manages to rebound. Just being in the Batfamily means you get put through the wringer because of Bruce's character and out of the long-standing Batfamily members' Dick has survived it the best. Last but not least, he had a good run as Batman. Editorial cut it short, but those 2009 to 2011 stories were very good. Out of all the characters mentioned, he's proven to be the most flexible. You might remember him from the adam West show, the original Batman comics. You might think of him from the animated series. You might think of him from the Teen Titans, you might think of him as Nightwing. That's all Dick Grayson. He touches all of that. He's a part of all of that. Iconic Batman Adventures, the Titans, the Super Friends, the Justice League.

So if we are looking at this from a true historical perspective, Dick Grayson is far and above the only one to fill that fourth spot.


But again, I'm not really into Trinities. I think it limits the brand, especially when DC boasts over 10,00 characters.

[HsssH]

Wonder Woman was a big seller in the 1940s and 1950s, when girls and women accounted for a large percentage of the consumer base. In fact, National Romance Comics made a lot of their profits for the publisher. But since the 1960s, the publisher has done a poor job with the Amazon and they've lost that big base of female readers. Yet, in terms of merchandising, Wonder Woman always was one of their most valued properties. That's why she survived when other characters fell by the wayside.

And that's the primary reason she's in the so-called Trinity. But it's like a confession that they don't know what to do with the character--so lets use Batman and Superman to prop her up and hopefully trick our mainly middle-aged, straight, male readers into reading about a Feminist icon.

It's a top down decision as opposed to something that arises from the creative milieu. Hal and Barry hanging out together made sense, because they were both written by John Broome for Julius Schwartz, and they were new kids on the block for the super-hero revival. Likewise Superman, Batman and Robin made sense when they were being written by the likes of Bill Finger and Edmond Hamilton and edited by Jack Schiff. Chuck Dixon partnering Black Canary with Oracle in the Birds of Prey--that was a creative impulse. The "Trinity" is strictly a business decision.

Reading this I remembered that terrible Trinity series by Wagner. Ugh.

Anyone knows when did this "Trinity" term came into existence?

[SecretWarrior]

Reading this I remembered that terrible Trinity series by Wagner. Ugh.

Anyone knows when did this "Trinity" term came into existence?

I read that it's from the Morrison Justice League, so it's a 90s thing.

[prepmaster]

I just cant see GL ever become the #4. It is fractured and harder to be adapted into movies than other franchises.
Harley is pushed as #4 but its not because she can stand on her own but rather a part of Batman franchise. The reasoning behind the pushing of Harley would likely be that its easier, costs less efforts to push her than other characters. She was not able to carry Bop and has her own solo cancelled.
Aquaman has a hit movie featuring popular actors but his comics has been cancelled.

Flash has its TV series and more consistent comic sales.
Robin has his own niche (leading Teen Titans and being a child superhero). But the Titans show has become a Batfam show, which means that the most prominant Robin (Dick Grayson) cant carry the show.

To me, the argument of #4 is between the Flash and Robin. I'd say The Flash for its consistency. But you can expect Harley to appear in big screens more than those 2 the since she sort of works like a female Robin.

[Goldrake]

2. Aquaman is very well know in the general audience. Yes, maybe as a joke for a long while, but the fact remains that even my grandma knows Aquaman. And after the billion-worthy film and the charisma of Momoa, his popularity just keeps skyrocketing (which is why I can't understand why he won't have a book starting March).

3. There are no other competitors. The fandom accepts Arthur as the only (or at least main) Aquaman, as much as we accept Clark, Diana and Bruce. There is no in-war, which helps a lot.

He is not having a book because the last run made a mistake that drove fans away and sales fell very low, they had a very dumb plot in which Mera kills Arthur "accidentally". Now they are searching for a writer that comes up with the right story.
As for Arthur having no competitors, he has and does not at the same time. His comic book is now basically about him and Mera, but being husband and wife, they are sort of package, but when not balanced she can overshadow him.

I just cant see GL ever become the #4. It is fractured and harder to be adapted into movies than other franchises.
Harley is pushed as #4 but its not because she can stand on her own but rather a part of Batman franchise. The reasoning behind the pushing of Harley would likely be that its easier, costs less efforts to push her than other characters. She was not able to carry Bop and has her own solo cancelled.
Aquaman has a hit movie featuring popular actors but his comics has been cancelled.

Flash has its TV series and more consistent comic sales.
Robin has his own niche (leading Teen Titans and being a child superhero). But the Titans show has become a Batfam show, which means that the most prominant Robin (Dick Grayson) cant carry the show.

To me, the argument of #4 is between the Flash and Robin. I'd say The Flash for its consistency. But you can expect Harley to appear in big screens more than those 2 the since she sort of works like a female Robin.

I agree regarding Flash, although Flash fans might argue which Flash? Non comic fans can't make distinctions between Barry or Wally. Therefore Flash is the main contender.

As for Harley being compared to Robin not at all. No comparison with Robin not even close. She might be pushed by DC but it doesn't work. I believe that if they continue to push her in movies, they will get the opposite result, since she is despised by fans as few others.

Robin can have a shot at 4th place but which Robin?

As reducing Aquaman success to popular actors is far fetched. That can apply to Kidman, however Momoa is famous in the US but his other movies have been a flop. With exception of the Dafoe, the rest of the cast overseas are relatively unknown and Aquaman did very well overseas.
As for his comic got canceled it was due to the last run, that although I loved, it was controversial and sank when they came up with a dumb killing of Arthur at Mera's hands, which made fans drop the book. Otherwise since New52 it has been fairly consistent in sales at one point beating all Marvel comics. But the last run somehow departed from the formula that worked since New52. Williamson just recently confirmed that Aquaman will be back, they are searching for the right writer and storylines, hopefully not to repeat the mistakes done in the last two years.

[prepmaster]

I agree regarding Flash, although Flash fans might argue which Flash? Non comic fans can't make distinctions between Barry or Wally. Therefore Flash is the main contender.

The Flash has many things going for him/them. Even though Barry is less popular than Wally among comic readers, Barry being able to carry a show means that "the fastest man alive" is something appealing. Who is the fastest superhero? The Flash. The names dont matter that much to casuals. Also special ability like time traveling and a good rogues gallery help.

Like if you have to create a trinity of DC most popular superheroes purely based on their powers/special abilities, Superman would be seen as the strongest, Batman would be written as the smartest and Flash should always be the fastest.

[Goldrake]

The Flash has many things going for him/them. Even though Barry is less popular than Wally among comic readers, Barry being able to carry a show means that "the fastest man alive" is something appealing. Who is the fastest superhero? The Flash. The names dont matter that much to casuals. Also special ability like time traveling and a good rogues gallery help.

Like if you have to create a trinity of DC most popular superheroes purely based on their powers/special abilities, Superman would be seen as the strongest, Batman would be written as the smartest and Flash should always be the fastest.

Non comic fans won't make the distinction between which one of the two is the Flash.

As for abilities and powers Wonder Woman is way stronger than Flash and more iconic.