12/65 - 06/73: Gwen Stacy Appreciation 2021

[Ozymandias]

No clones, not alternates, no flashbacks. Just this character:



By Steve Ditko,



John Romita,



John Buscema,

[Ozymandias]

Gil Kane,



or this late John Romita. But please not this early Ross Andru:

[Ozymandias]

gwen.jpg
How about this one?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The ever-inconsistent, bizarre, frequently annoying Gwen Stacy of 1965-1973.

Frequently a class snob, always on the verge of a nervous breakdown, definitely in need of therapy, wingnut-curious, daddy's girl, Gwen. They never quite knew what to do with her.

But please not this early Ross Andru:

Huh...Andru brought back parts of the Ditko Gwen. Respect, my dude.

Say what you want, but at least Andru is drawing Gwen and MJ to look clearly different from each other whereas Romita just made Gwen into a MJ-clone.

or this late John Romita.

Wow. Gotta say, I was never a Gwen fan, but that dress and hat...Girl is working it. Great find.

[Conn Seanery]

This thread is for appreciating Gwen Stacy, not commenting about each other. Anyone doing the latter will be receiving time off from the site.

[Spider-Tiger]

Dunno if this is relevant to 1965-1973 Gwen Stacy, but I really like Tim Sale's illustrations of classic Gwen. He made MJ and Gwen look distinctive, and found a happy medium between Romita Gwen and Ditko Gwen.



Although classic Gwen is most associated with miniskirts and go-go boots, Romita has said that he never liked Gwen wearing those mod party-girl fashions:

Stan used to accuse me of favoring Mary Jane over Gwen. He'd want me to make Gwen more glamorous. But Gwen was more serious, especially after her father [Captain Stacy] died. I kept telling Stan, "Gwen's a lady - she's not the same kind of airhead that Mary Jane is. I can't have her smiling all the time." When he had me start putting Gwen in mini-skirts, I didn't feel it was right for her. Pretty soon it was hard to tell Gwen and Mary Jane apart. They were like Betty and Veronica - the same girl except for the hair color.

https://www.twomorrows.com/alterego/.../09romita.html

Though his statements are a bit questionable, I have to agree in terms of design. I think Gwen looked her best when she was wearing a classy stylish suit or dress, and she looked distinctive and quite glamorous too. If MJ was Ann-Margret, Gwen Stacy was (originally) a Hitchcock girl.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Dunno if this is relevant to 1965-1973 Gwen Stacy, but I really like Tim Sale's illustrations of classic Gwen. He made MJ and Gwen look distinctive, and found a happy medium between Romita Gwen and Ditko Gwen.



Although classic Gwen is most associated with miniskirts and go-go boots, Romita has said that he never liked Gwen wearing those mod party-girl fashions:



https://www.twomorrows.com/alterego/.../09romita.html

Though his statements are a bit questionable, I have to agree in terms of design. I think Gwen looked her best when she was wearing a classy stylish suit or dress, and she looked distinctive and quite glamorous too. If MJ was Ann-Margret, Gwen Stacy was (originally) a Hitchcock girl.

Agreed with this.

[Ozymandias]

Dunno if this is relevant to 1965-1973 Gwen Stacy, but I really like Tim Sale's illustrations of classic Gwen. He made MJ and Gwen look distinctive, and found a happy medium between Romita Gwen and Ditko Gwen.

Not really, being a flashback story (AU?) and thus... revisionist. That aside, you chose my favorite panel of the whole mini, so I'm not complaining. Sale's version reminds me a lot of the early Romita depicted in the second example of the first post.

BTW, nice quote. I can see where both of them were coming from. Stan wanted to update the character to keep her relevant and Romita didn't. The question I'd pose to him would be "why?". Was it just a question of being loyal to the original? If so, he shouldn't have changed Peter either. I think he just had a pony in the race.

[Spider-Tiger]

BTW, nice quote. I can see where both of them were coming from. Stan wanted to update the character to keep her relevant and Romita didn't. The question I'd pose to him would be "why?". Was it just a question of being loyal to the original? If so, he shouldn't have changed Peter either. I think he just had a pony in the race.

Romita had a keen eye for the latest fashion trends so I think Gwen's fashions would have been up-to-date regardless. I just think he wanted to give the characters distinctive styles that he felt best reflected their personalities...so Mary Jane, the wild party girl, would wear Mary Quant and Paco Rabanne, and Gwen Stacy, the more "lady like", would wear Givenchy and Chanel, etc. I think Stan really liked MJ's design and wanted Gwen to look similar.

[Ozymandias]

Not surprising, MJ was an all Romita design, while Gwen had to transition from Ditko, who was great at many things, but not romance comics.

Maybe if Stan had not pestered Romita about her looks, the latter wouldn't have been as inclined to accept Conway's proposal, when it came to writing her off. It would've have been interesting to see Romita follow his own criteria, I certainly liked the Gwen he drew in the late 40's. Maybe that's what he wanted?

[Kevinroc]

https://www.cbr.com/john-romita-sr-r...-and-stan-lee/

This interview Romita gave a few years ago doesn't completely match-up with Conway's own recollections, but it's pretty clear Romita was absolutely satisfied with the decision to kill Gwen.

Romita being a fan of Milton Caniff's Terry and the Pirates is something both of them have said.

I would be remiss if I didn't bring up one of the biggest events in the history of Marvel Comics, which you were involved with, the Death of Gwen Stacy.

Yes, I'm the murderer. [Laughs]

The reason I take the credit for it was we were told to kill Aunt May. Gerry Conway and I got together for our plot session -- we used to get together at his apartment -- and he said, how are we going to kill Aunt May? I said, if you kill Aunt May, you're not going to do a damn bit of good to the strip. It'll lose one of Peter Parker's hangups. He won't have to worry about Aunt May anymore. He won't be treated like a child anymore. If we want to make any kind of stir in the monthly line, we have to kill somebody important. That means we need to kill Mary Jane or Gwen Stacy.

The reason I told we should kill Gwen Stacy was Mary Jane was an airheaded comedy character at the time. She was there to jazz the place up. She was not his girlfriend. His girlfriend was Gwen Stacy. I said, I learned from Milton Caniff. Milton Caniff every three or four years killed an important character. I remember as a young boy hearing adults saying that did you see that Raven Sherman has been killed in "Terry and the Pirates?" I said to myself, oh my god, grownups are talking about "Terry and the Pirates?" They worried about Raven Sherman. Raven Sherman was Pat Ryan's girlfriend in "Terry and the Pirates." I was an avid reader of "Terry and the Pirates." It hurt me, but I didn't expect it to hurt grownups. That stayed with me. I told Gerry Conway that story and I said, if you want to kill somebody, kill somebody important or leave it alone. He said it was a good idea. He was all for it because I convinced him, that would get attention. I submit that after forty years, I think it's still getting attention. [Laughs] I think I was right.

This bit is good too.

You killed her, but she's immortal.

I take great pride in that. When people say, "Did you really want to kill Gwen Stacy?" I say, "She was one of my favorite characters." She was a Ditko character, remember. I created Mary Jane but Gwen Stacy was my favorite character and I did that knowing that that's how I could get people's attention.

[Ozymandias]

So, Romita was in favor of killing Gwen so people would notice her? The more commonly accepted reason is that they wanted to avoid this:

wedding.jpg

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So, Romita was in favor of killing Gwen so people would notice her? The more commonly accepted reason is that they wanted to avoid this:

That's something fans and others cooked up. (And the Mexican thing has been disproven as some exaggerated hoax)

But killing Gwen was solely as a stunt to raise stakes, and they chose Gwen because she was significant but disposable. It wasn't done to forestall any impending marriage.

That is to say, there was no real plans from Stan Lee or anyone to marry Peter and Gwen at that time. There was no actual possibility in terms of a story actually discussed or proposed in-office that this specific thing was created to torpedo.

[Ozymandias]

"disproven as some exaggerated hoax"

I don't know what you mean.

Marriage was a given, back then. Hank & Janet, Reed & Sue, Namor & Dorma. If it wasn't in the cards, the romantic interest didn't last: Kare Page and Jane Foster were sent away (so was Jean Grey at some point); Doris Evans, Pepper Potts and Betty Brant moved on, Clea could only be kept close as an apprentice and Alicia Masters wasn't in real trouble (was she?). Then we have Gwen, who had no relatives to chaperone her and was financially independent (had her father's house and money enough to travel to Europe). It was a unique situation in Stan's MU, and had been procrastinated long enough. Murder was an easy solution.

[Kevinroc]

"The relationship between Pete and Gwen had been through a lot of inconsequential ups and downs, and unless the two were to be married, there was nowhere else to take it. But marriage seemed wrong, too. Peter just wasn't ready. So Gerry, Roy and Stan debated the question... All had reached the same inescapable conclusion. Gwen's death was simply fated to happen. Events had shaped themselves in such a way that their only logical resolution was tragedy. So don't blame Gerry. Don't blame Stan. Don't blame anyone. Only the inscrutable, inexorable workings of circumstance are culpable this time."

(An editorial comment that appeared in ASM Vol. 1 #126.)