Achilles (Troy movie) vs Netflix Daredevil

[Stigmazilla]

Thing is, Matt is fast enough to dodge it. Between the radar sense and his own speed (evidenced by the arrow-catching), the dude was dodging stuff that the Bullseye character was throwing. I don't really have a problem with him dodging a single, thrown sword. Which, in this case, Achilles doesn't even have (check the equipment given to both fighters in the OP).

I think not having the sword is a major disadvantage here for Achilles. All Daredevil has to do dodge Achilles spear thrust, and close in, which should be quite possible for Achilles. Once he's in close Daredevil can Hammer him with his clubs and Achilles won't have much to protect himself.

[Postmania]

While getting past the point of the spear wouldn't be great, Achilles does still have his armor in that case and he can still choke up on the spear technically/use the shield to bash Matt backwards.

Obviously one scenario favours this a bit better than the other because there's more room in the Arena.

[Sharpandpointies]

While getting past the point of the spear wouldn't be great, Achilles does still have his armor in that case and he can still choke up on the spear technically/use the shield to bash Matt backwards.

Obviously one scenario favors this a bit better than the other because there's more room in the Arena.

Basically this. While I agree that losing the sword is a bit of a downgrade for Achilles, I'm still seeing him having a decent shot given his hitting power, skill, armor, shield, and spear.

[Sol_M]

Achilles being a dude who makes impossible sword-throws-through-metal-armor, I'm pretty cool with him being able to hurt Matt anyway, here.

For me, it's a fight; Achilles has the advantage of longer weaponry, a shield, and greater strength, eliminating some of Matt's armor advantage based on feats. Plus, Achilles' helmet means bouncing the club off a wall to clock him on the back of the head isn't going to be nearly as effective. Heck, Matt's clubs aren't going to be terribly effective, period, against Achilles - the armor will largely blunt the impacts, though his arms, legs, throat, and to some extent face (though it's mostly covered) remain viable targets.

On the plus side for Matt, he enjoys a speed advantage over Achilles (no blitzing, an advantage), and his armor will offer at least SOME protection.

I am not sold at all on the skill advantage for Matt. Achilles wades into groups of armed men, alone, and basically slaughters them without being touched (this is when surrounded by people, so they're not just at his front, they're all around him). It's at least on the level of what we see from Matt, skill-wise, in terms of effectiveness.

Matt, at his best, does similar. However, there are PLENTY of times where Matt suffers a beating, whereas basically the only time someone lays a glove on Achilles is via arrow from ambush. Not to say that we should judge Matt on his low times, but when he takes bucketloads of hits, billing him as actually better than Achilles does not sit well with me.

This is going to be a hard fight. In the arena I would give a majority to Achilles, and not easy wins. In the alley, Matt does have better options for bouncing stuff off walls and managing to maybe doing more damage...which is countered by the fact that in the alley, if Matt wants to get past the shield he needs to go OVER Achilles. Hm.

Mileage may vary.

Not doubting you, but it's been a while since I've watched the movie and I cannot recall Achilles doing any of the things you're describing. I rewatched the beach-head battle scene and while he charged into a large group of enemies, I'm still just seeing mostly the takedown of nameless mooks one by one, while the others wait their turn. His fight against Hector was probably the most impressive thing skill wise, but Hector just seemed slightly less skilled than him - that fight seemed to be more a matter of Achilles having a significant advantage and strength and stamina.

Do you remember which specific battle had him doing the stuff you described?

[Sharpandpointies]

Not doubting you, but it's been a while since I've watched the movie and I cannot recall Achilles doing any of the things you're describing. I rewatched the beach-head battle scene and while he charged into a large group of enemies, I'm still just seeing mostly the takedown of nameless mooks one by one, while the others wait their turn. His fight against Hector was probably the most impressive thing skill wise, but Hector just seemed slightly less skilled than him - that fight seemed to be more a matter of Achilles having a significant advantage and strength and stamina.

Do you remember which specific battle had him doing the stuff you described?

Okay, cool. Let's look!

Beach Sequence.

Starting at 2:25, there's a scene where he's got three guys at least around him and he's basically killing them. It's no worse in terms of fighting multiple opponents than anything Matt has done. This continues with him ducking strikes from one guy while killing another, parrying from one person, killing another guy, going back and killing the guy he parried, etc.

One can argue 'but choreography doesn't exactly show them all attacking him 100% simultaneously!' with SOME validity, sure. But if that happened in the filming, I think we know how well Pitt would have managed the scene. The point is that he's charging alone into a group of people who are actively trying to kill him, not just coming at him one at a time, and continuing to murder them without taking a hit. If we get into specifics of choreography, whooo boy I cannot wait until Arrow or Melinda May comes up again and I can point out how terrible the fight choreography is, and that despite them managing to beat up crowds of people we must consider them absolutely crap fighters. ^_^ If you get my meaning. Or that Six Million Dollar Man Bigfoot is clearly capable only of throwing styrofoam (I'm exaggerating for comedic effect, and certainly not saying that you're saying this, but).

It's a tad different from '15 guys charge down a hallway toward Tony Jaa, and he then proceeds to fight them literally one at a time.' ^_^ (Ugh, the Protector)

This sort of thing of him facing multiple enemies and murdering them all, sometimes while dealing with them in multiples simultaneously even with the Choreography issues, continues to 2:42.

Then it's 'charge up the hill, fight two guys in close quarters simultaneously and shank both.' Third guy comes at him from behind and clearly actually waits for Pitt to turn around, okay, that's a choregraphing issue again and I'm PRETTY sure that if I watched Daredevil again I'd be able to point to that happening at least once. Then it's Achilles with two swords against three guys, he's literally fighting one on each side of himself simultaneously at one point, then at 3:12 he does an impossible throw of a sword through a helmet (close range, but it's pretty clear he throws it).

To me, the feat is 'Achilles charges into groups of trained soldiers with equal equipment to himself, fighting them in twos, threes, and fours, and murders them all without taking a scratch.'

Hector versus Achilles, my take.

So, before Achilles chops Hector's spear in half, Achilles keeps Hector rather firmly on the defensive, getting 7-8 attacks before Hector even gets a single one (Hector is left backpedalling, staggering, and blocking the entire time). After that, Hector continues to be forced on the defensive, with Achilles getting 2-3 attacks for each of Hector's. Hector manages to trap Achilles' spear, to which Achilles' response is to destroy Hector's spear.

Frankly, Hector - who is Troy's best, really - is coming off looking REALLY second best.

Hector TRIES to shove Achilles away with his shield; Achilles resists, pushes back, and sends Hector staggering away.

There's a nice scene where Hector manages to disarm Achilles (gotta be fair) after suffering through another three attacks, then goes after an unarmed Achilles with his sword. Achilles goes on the defensive, gets his own sword out (doing stuff like 'Actively blocking attacks by using his shin armor'), and then proceeds to immediately force Hector away, getting (again) two-three attacks for every one of Hector's and sending him staggering by stabbing his shield with his shortsword.

Achilles is quite clearly dominating Hector at this point. Not only is he far stronger, but he's managing to continuously force Hector onto the defensive from the get-go.

We see some more fighting with the swords, Achilles doing stuff like 'Parry behind my back' and 'Parry with my greaves, again' (which Hector does not manage at any time). In fact, he closes at one point, interrupting Hector's attack by elbowing him in the face.

There is one point where Hector goes on the offensive, managing to get three attacks in while forcing Achilles back, and clips Achilles' armor. Achilles then ties up his sword and kicks him the shield hard enough to knock him down.

They go at it with Hector using two weapons - sword and broken spear - and Achilles tossing away his shield to fight only with sword. Achilles basically dances around Hector at this point, avoiding all of his attacks. Hector charges in swinging, Achilles deflects all of his attacks then uses his open palm to just shove him back (if he could do that, he could likely have also just stuck his sword in Hector's face).

The next time Hector tries this, Achilles basically disarms him of the spear - casually, with one hand - and sticks it back straight through Hector's armor.

For me, the entire fight is 'Hector is outclassed in skill, strength, and yeah, endurance.'

Mileage may vary.

[Sharpandpointies]

I admit, they did their best with Mr. Confusing Cameraman to make the action scenes in Troy all hard to follow. Ugh.

[Oswin]

not to mention Hector himself was a very capable fighter in the movie, he fought and killed Ajax, a guy that can apparently shieldslam a horse of it's feet mid-charge.

[Sol_M]

Yeah, I think the choreography is what I have a problem with. I agree that his presentation is that of an untouchable warrior, but with the choreography, it makes it difficult for me to really determine what that entails. There's certainly some impressive things, but some of it is just superhuman stats/unrealistic occurrences.

Okay, cool. Let's look!

Beach Sequence.

Starting at 2:25, there's a scene where he's got three guys at least around him and he's basically killing them. It's no worse in terms of fighting multiple opponents than anything Matt has done. This continues with him ducking strikes from one guy while killing another, parrying from one person, killing another guy, going back and killing the guy he parried, etc.

One can argue 'but choreography doesn't exactly show them all attacking him 100% simultaneously!' with SOME validity, sure. But if that happened in the filming, I think we know how well Pitt would have managed the scene. The point is that he's charging alone into a group of people who are actively trying to kill him, not just coming at him one at a time, and continuing to murder them without taking a hit. If we get into specifics of choreography, whooo boy I cannot wait until Arrow or Melinda May comes up again and I can point out how terrible the fight choreography is, and that despite them managing to beat up crowds of people we must consider them absolutely crap fighters. ^_^ If you get my meaning. Or that Six Million Dollar Man Bigfoot is clearly capable only of throwing styrofoam (I'm exaggerating for comedic effect, and certainly not saying that you're saying this, but).

It's a tad different from '15 guys charge down a hallway toward Tony Jaa, and he then proceeds to fight them literally one at a time.' ^_^ (Ugh, the Protector)

I have no problems with this interpretation, but I have to ask: How do you determine if it's bad choreography or bad strategy?

This sort of thing of him facing multiple enemies and murdering them all, sometimes while dealing with them in multiples simultaneously even with the Choreography issues, continues to 2:42.

Then it's 'charge up the hill, fight two guys in close quarters simultaneously and shank both.' Third guy comes at him from behind and clearly actually waits for Pitt to turn around, okay, that's a choregraphing issue again and I'm PRETTY sure that if I watched Daredevil again I'd be able to point to that happening at least once. Then it's Achilles with two swords against three guys, he's literally fighting one on each side of himself simultaneously at one point, then at 3:12 he does an impossible throw of a sword through a helmet (close range, but it's pretty clear he throws it).

To me, the feat is 'Achilles charges into groups of trained soldiers with equal equipment to himself, fighting them in twos, threes, and fours, and murders them all without taking a scratch.'

I read the presentation the same way, however, I kind of feel like Matt in later seasons does similar, if not more impressive things? Like fighting Hand ninjas, for example, who should be highly trained mooks. Definitely in earlier seasons, this would be outside his abilities.

Hector versus Achilles, my take.

So, before Achilles chops Hector's spear in half, Achilles keeps Hector rather firmly on the defensive, getting 7-8 attacks before Hector even gets a single one (Hector is left backpedalling, staggering, and blocking the entire time). After that, Hector continues to be forced on the defensive, with Achilles getting 2-3 attacks for each of Hector's. Hector manages to trap Achilles' spear, to which Achilles' response is to destroy Hector's spear.

Frankly, Hector - who is Troy's best, really - is coming off looking REALLY second best.

Hector TRIES to shove Achilles away with his shield; Achilles resists, pushes back, and sends Hector staggering away.

There's a nice scene where Hector manages to disarm Achilles (gotta be fair) after suffering through another three attacks, then goes after an unarmed Achilles with his sword. Achilles goes on the defensive, gets his own sword out (doing stuff like 'Actively blocking attacks by using his shin armor'), and then proceeds to immediately force Hector away, getting (again) two-three attacks for every one of Hector's and sending him staggering by stabbing his shield with his shortsword.

Achilles is quite clearly dominating Hector at this point. Not only is he far stronger, but he's managing to continuously force Hector onto the defensive from the get-go.

We see some more fighting with the swords, Achilles doing stuff like 'Parry behind my back' and 'Parry with my greaves, again' (which Hector does not manage at any time). In fact, he closes at one point, interrupting Hector's attack by elbowing him in the face.

There is one point where Hector goes on the offensive, managing to get three attacks in while forcing Achilles back, and clips Achilles' armor. Achilles then ties up his sword and kicks him the shield hard enough to knock him down.

They go at it with Hector using two weapons - sword and broken spear - and Achilles tossing away his shield to fight only with sword. Achilles basically dances around Hector at this point, avoiding all of his attacks. Hector charges in swinging, Achilles deflects all of his attacks then uses his open palm to just shove him back (if he could do that, he could likely have also just stuck his sword in Hector's face).

The next time Hector tries this, Achilles basically disarms him of the spear - casually, with one hand - and sticks it back straight through Hector's armor.

For me, the entire fight is 'Hector is outclassed in skill, strength, and yeah, endurance.'

Mileage may vary.

I agree with everything except the part about putting Hector on the defensive and getting more attacks in. I always read that as a more psychological problem due to Achilles being out for blood and Hector still struggling with the guilt of having killed Achilles' cousin and therefore being slightly more distracted. Maybe I'm just misreading what the writers were going for there.

As evidence (in my mind), I present that fact that when Hector realizes it's going poorly, he actually does appear to get more aggressive, gets more attacks in, scratches Achilles' vest, breaks his spear, etc.

But yeah, Achilles is clearly more skilled, slightly faster, and far, far stronger. I think your description of the fight definitely makes me appreciate some of the more details - the nuances of the scene had escaped me till now.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yeah, I think the choreography is what I have a problem with. I agree that his presentation is that of an untouchable warrior, but with the choreography, it makes it difficult for me to really determine what that entails. There's certainly some impressive things, but some of it is just superhuman stats/unrealistic occurrences.

Totally get it. ^_^

I have no problems with this interpretation, but I have to ask: How do you determine if it's bad choreography or bad strategy?

Well...when you look at the scene, you SEE the soldiers moving in and the camera-work supporting the idea that it's Achilles against multiple people. Now, soldiers - unless they are freaking morons - are NOT going to try to one-on-one some guy who has charged into their ranks, they're just going to stab him in the back when he's engaged with someone else and call it a day.

So we go with one of the following:

1. The soldiers sometimes are total morons and their strategy stinks;
2. The soldiers are, on occasion, attacking Pitt in multiples simultaneously. At other times, the film is trying to at least give the impression of this.

I tend to go with the latter here, unless it's a Tony Jaa/Protector scene, where literally fifteen guys run down the hall at Jaa, and then fight him one on one - only one guy in the actual camera with Jaa - in a huge room. Which is...yeesh. Not even trying to make it look like a crowd-fight, guys. But here? There ARE sequences where Pitt is literally fighting two-three people at once, not just guys waiting their turn. So I figure the bouts of poor choreography for just that. ^_^

I read the presentation the same way, however, I kind of feel like Matt in later seasons does similar, if not more impressive things? Like fighting Hand ninjas, for example, who should be highly trained mooks. Definitely in earlier seasons, this would be outside his abilities.

Sure, but how much better? Do we then rate Matt as better - Matt, who does, as I recall, take hits from Hand ninja - than Achilles? It's worth noting that the dudes Achilles fights are also wearing armor, which the Hand are really not, so we need to throw that in as well. Basically, both heroes jump into groups of trained, skilled enemies (Hand ninja, professional soldiers wearing armor with shields) and kick all hell out of them. I'm really not seeing any kind of great skill edge for Matt with that, myself, but mileage, etc.

I'm not saying Achilles is better; I'm saying IF Matt is better, it's not in a way that's going to make a meaningful difference, not without someone coming up with stuff for him beyond what I can recall. And unlike Achilles, Matt's presentation isn't even that of someone who is untouchable - he consistently takes hits from all manner of opposition. All the time? Nope. But enough that we're supposed to get the idea that the fight scenes have stakes, even against groups of prisoners, or thugs, or whatever.

Achilles, on the other hand, basically steamrolls everyone but Hector (who is probably the second-best in the movie), and basically overruns/overpowers Hector and kills him. There is not a single fight in the entire movie where there's the sense Achilles is in serious danger. He gets killed by a dude loosing arrows into him from ambush. ^_^

I agree with everything except the part about putting Hector on the defensive and getting more attacks in. I always read that as a more psychological problem due to Achilles being out for blood and Hector still struggling with the guilt of having killed Achilles' cousin.

For me, I don't figure Hector is actually feeling a lot of guilt about killing a guy who is besieging his city and killing his people..or if he is, he's pretty focused on killing Achilles/surviving against this legendary murder-machine. But that's me. For me, it's pretty clear that in the fight Hector is in complete 'reaction' or defensive mode - he's struggling to survive and occasionally trying to sneak in a shot, but is just getting shoved back, overpowered, continuously forced to desperately block, punched in the face, etc.

We throw onto that stuff like 'Achilles casually blocks low shots with his greaves, Achilles parries behind his back, Achilles dances around Hector's two-weapon flurry', and I'm rather cool with Hector being a tier below Achilles when it comes to skill.

As evidence (in my mind), I present that fact that when Hector realizes it's going poorly, he actually does appear to get more aggressive, gets more attacks in, scratches Achilles' vest, breaks his spear, etc.

I get that.

For me, Hector gets in two sequences like that - manages to scratch his armor once, and breaks Achilles' spear after Achilles does the same to his, after completely dominating him. And then Achilles proceeds to dominate him again. Basically the entire fight is Achilles dominating Hector and driving him backward except in about two instances, where Hector rallies for a short time, ultimately gets shoved back, and then it's all Achilles again. Even when Hector is trying with two weapons versus Achilles' one (which, in real life, isn't an automatic gamewinner or anything, but in Hollywood is often presented as a big deal..and CAN be if the other guy is trained for it).

That's how it runs for me, anyway. I understand people having a different opinion on it!

But yeah, Achilles is clearly more skilled, slightly faster, and far, far stronger. I think your description of the fight definitely makes me appreciate some of the more details - the nuances of the scene had escaped me till now.

I tend to take these things and rewind five-second intervals or brief exchanges over and over again to get a better idea of what I'm seeing. ^_^

[Jackalope89]

Yeah, be it book or film, when Achilles is in killer mode, very little will stand in his way. Even Troy's best fighter, one who scored hits on some big name Greek heroes, was no match.

Now, Achilles not having a sword is kind of limiting for this fight. But he's a crafty, and brutal, fighter.

[Guy1]

Much like the RPM Suits, that is not Spandex.

^Daredevil Fights Video.

[Guy1]

[Siriel]

Achilles being out for blood

That's not really the case though, just to note. Achilles explains what he's going for right at the start of the fight - his goal is to show to everyone that Hector could never have killed him and make him be remembered as a fool. He's not trying to kill him as far as possible, which should be obvious given that he gets an undeniable opportunity to just win he decides to let Hector get back up and on his guard again because he feels that Hector tripping would make his victory be attributed to chance.

After Hector manages to scratch his armor he starts doing stuff like making it seem like Hector stabbed him by catching his sword between his arm and shield*, outright throws away his shield, and ultimately kills him with with his own weapon. He was giving a show to the audience by humiliating his opponent to prove that he was the greatest fighter in the war.

*: The movie even makes it a point to cut to Hector's family to make it clear that the watchers are the intended audience of this.

[master of read]

That's not really the case though, just to note. Achilles explains what he's going for right at the start of the fight - his goal is to show to everyone that Hector could never have killed him and make him be remembered as a fool. He's not trying to kill him as far as possible, which should be obvious given that he gets an undeniable opportunity to just win he decides to let Hector get back up and on his guard again because he feels that Hector tripping would make his victory be attributed to chance.

After Hector manages to scratch his armor he starts doing stuff like making it seem like Hector stabbed him by catching his sword between his arm and shield*, outright throws away his shield, and ultimately kills him with with his own weapon. He was giving a show to the audience by humiliating his opponent to prove that he was the greatest fighter in the war.

*: The movie even makes it a point to cut to Hector's family to make it clear that the watchers are the intended audience of this.

but you gotta admit, he was also pretty pissed his cousin got killed. but thanks for the insight on it. i never really thought of it from that POV.

[Slade1]

That's not really the case though, just to note. Achilles explains what he's going for right at the start of the fight - his goal is to show to everyone that Hector could never have killed him and make him be remembered as a fool. He's not trying to kill him as far as possible, which should be obvious given that he gets an undeniable opportunity to just win he decides to let Hector get back up and on his guard again because he feels that Hector tripping would make his victory be attributed to chance.

After Hector manages to scratch his armor he starts doing stuff like making it seem like Hector stabbed him by catching his sword between his arm and shield*, outright throws away his shield, and ultimately kills him with with his own weapon. He was giving a show to the audience by humiliating his opponent to prove that he was the greatest fighter in the war.

*: The movie even makes it a point to cut to Hector's family to make it clear that the watchers are the intended audience of this.

Then why did he take Hector's body? He was mad at Hector so he denied him a proper ritual. That has nothing to do with being a better fighter.