Who is the 4th pillar of the DCU?

[MadFacedKid]

Aquaman feels very different to Wonder Woman to me. Magic has many variations, and Aquaman is the King of the seas. He controls a very different area than Diana. He can communicate with sea animals and in the ocean is probably more powerful than Diana. His mythos is well developed too and his movie was a big hit.

I know the Flash is getting very popular, and remember he is also about speed, but Superman can also fly very fast haha. It doesn't mean their powers are the same.

Sales wise, I vote for the Joker. His movie did better than BvS and Batman Begins. I think the Suicide Squad movie did as well at the Box Office, not for Harley, but for Joker, Will Smith and Batman. Harley's own movie wasn't a bit hit. And she was front and center.

I wouldn’t even call Wonder Woman magical. Given the sense she doesn’t really cast spells or dip into the arcane herself outside gear. But even then.

You could honestly even argue outside magic that Aquaman can classify on the top of a Eco-list of heroes name a character who is as connected to an element and is as popular as Aquaman. When you think of a water superhero it’s commonly Aquaman and a lot of movements to protect the sea when they’re tied to a comic character it’s Aquaman. I’d argue Aquaman is the face of a list of characters who are more about the environment, or even elements. Swamp thing, Vixen, Animal Man, The Sea Devils etc


Regardless of that I think Bat39’s point of why Flash is 4th was the best explanation for Flash and I can’t disagree Flash is more significant to the DC Universe lore wise then Aquaman is. Honestly until recent attempts to put Wonder Woman at the forefront I’d argue you could even say atleast inside the DC universe Flash is more integral. It honestly all depends in my opinion on how we’re deciding the fourth pillar though.

[Johnny]

[Dred]

The biggest argument against Flash and GL is the movie and alternating lead.

I suppose it's more practical to say, at least in the comics, the Flash or GL franchise is a more important pillar to DC than the Aquaman one. And in said franchises there are one or two characters each who are individually more significant than Arthur.

In outside media Aquaman wins because his movie has been made. Flash could possibly leapfrog it with that movie, but that's a big if. I think DC originally valued GL more because they tried to launch their movie franchises with it, but flubbed it. So this aspect is certainly variable.

[CaptCleghorn]

I said other. Throughout DC history, the Flash has been a sign of the age comics were in at the time. In the Golden Age, Jay. The Silver Age started with Barry, and Crisis ended with Wally taking over the mantle. Each Flash individually doesn't come close to the trinity, but together, the Flash concept is the closest DC has to a fourth pillar. Nothing and nobody's close, but if you HAD to have a fourth, the Flash concept.

[kalai]

So not to be that guy, but Wonder Woman being the trinity doesn't really make her the third pillar.
If we are talking about the silver age, the third pillar is Robin, fourth is Flash.
If we are talking about modern age, the third is Green Lantern sales-wise and event-wise, the fourth is Flash.
Wonder Woman certainly is the historical character and have more influence due to her TV show and the recent movies,
but comic sales-wise I don't think she was really that pillar character.

[MadFacedKid]

So not to be that guy, but Wonder Woman being the trinity doesn't really make her the third pillar.
If we are talking about the silver age, the third pillar is Robin, fourth is Flash.
If we are talking about modern age, the third is Green Lantern sales-wise and event-wise, the fourth is Flash.
Wonder Woman certainly is the historical character and have more influence due to her TV show and the recent movies,
but comic sales-wise I don't think she was really that pillar character.

Coming into the original thread that’s why I thought we were going off character recognition and brand knowledge outside comic lore and comic sales. A lot of the arguments harm Diana’s case of being the 3rd pillar. Honestly thinking on your post both threads could be asking two different things at this point without meaning to

[kalai]

Coming into the original thread that’s why I thought we were going off character recognition and brand knowledge outside comic lore and comic sales. A lot of the arguments harm Diana’s case of being the 3rd pillar. Honestly thinking on your post both threads could be asking two different things at this point without meaning to

Yeah, I think there's really just Superman and Batman, and everyone else.
Maybe Green Lantern came close during the Geoff Johns years but in the end that popularity didn't last.
And in the movies obviously Aquaman and Wonder Woman got more influence recently because of their movies,
and Superman didn't get a solo movie in 8 years. So who knows.

[MadFacedKid]

Yeah, I think there's really just Superman and Batman, and everyone else.
Maybe Green Lantern came close during the Geoff Johns years but in the end that popularity didn't last.
And in the movies obviously Aquaman and Wonder Woman got more influence recently because of their movies,
and Superman didn't get a solo movie in 8 years. So who knows.

The intent for GL was definitely there. Wonder Woman and Aquaman despite having successful movies have yet to get anywhere the push GL got around and after his film. If his film was a success we definitely would probably have been introduced to a different in comic universe that revolves more around him similar to Ironman at Marvel maybe. If not more so with space threats coming to Earth and GL being the frontline and face of the JL.

[skyvolt2000]

So not to be that guy, but Wonder Woman being the trinity doesn't really make her the third pillar.
If we are talking about the silver age, the third pillar is Robin, fourth is Flash.
If we are talking about modern age, the third is Green Lantern sales-wise and event-wise, the fourth is Flash.
Wonder Woman certainly is the historical character and have more influence due to her TV show and the recent movies,
but comic sales-wise I don't think she was really that pillar character.

Folks can toss out comic book sales all they like but remember there is BIAS when we talk about that.

How many store would NOT sell Wonder Woman books? Because she is a FEMALE? Same BIAS for Aquaman and probably Hal, Barry, Harley and others.

Wonder Woman is 3rd because unlike Green Lantern-she has a hit movie. Unlike Green Lantern-she had a tv show last longer than 1 season. She did not have to get REPLACED multiple times. Folks have tried to expand her empire instead of sabotaging it for one guy.

Pillar is not limited comic book sales or tv shows or movies-its EVERYTHING.

There are 10 Earth Lanterns-meaning you will get 10 different replies on who is Green Lantern.

Flash is Barry-although Wally carried that flame for 20 years.

She has over 600 issues for a REASON.

[skyvolt2000]

Yeah, I think there's really just Superman and Batman, and everyone else.
Maybe Green Lantern came close during the Geoff Johns years but in the end that popularity didn't last.
And in the movies obviously Aquaman and Wonder Woman got more influence recently because of their movies,
and Superman didn't get a solo movie in 8 years. So who knows.

They already had it. Not every fan of theirs READ comics.

DC screwed up Green Lantern by fanning the flames of too many Earth Lanterns. When they did expand-DC screwed it up again. If they took the GOTG approach versus worship of ONE-everything would be different.
You can't keep ignoring the success of others because you don't like it. You build on Far Sector, Simon/Jessica, Hal's book, Teen Lantern and Future State John to where you are at the level of say X-Men.
When you can have your main books and still spinoff others when needed.

[kalai]

Folks can toss out comic book sales all they like but remember there is BIAS when we talk about that.

How many store would NOT sell Wonder Woman books? Because she is a FEMALE? Same BIAS for Aquaman and probably Hal, Barry, Harley and others.

Wonder Woman is 3rd because unlike Green Lantern-she has a hit movie. Unlike Green Lantern-she had a tv show last longer than 1 season. She did not have to get REPLACED multiple times. Folks have tried to expand her empire instead of sabotaging it for one guy.

Pillar is not limited comic book sales or tv shows or movies-its EVERYTHING.

There are 10 Earth Lanterns-meaning you will get 10 different replies on who is Green Lantern.

Flash is Barry-although Wally carried that flame for 20 years.

She has over 600 issues for a REASON.

I mean I get it, but the same can be argued about Flash (even Green Arrow).
Flash had like 7 seasons not counting the 90s series, Green Arrow had 8 seasons of TV show.
And they even had events and an TV multiverse out there.
Most of their influences are periodical due to mainstream input like movies, TV shows and stuff.
Even Superman has moved down from the undoubtedly no.1 to no.2.
While Batman moved up to be a big hit in almost every genre from comic to movie and games.
So it's still just Superman and Batman, and everyone else.

[kalai]

They already had it. Not every fan of theirs READ comics.

DC screwed up Green Lantern by fanning the flames of too many Earth Lanterns. When they did expand-DC screwed it up again. If they took the GOTG approach versus worship of ONE-everything would be different.
You can't keep ignoring the success of others because you don't like it. You build on Far Sector, Simon/Jessica, Hal's book, Teen Lantern and Future State John to where you are at the level of say X-Men.
When you can have your main books and still spinoff others when needed.

I don't think Lantern is doing anywhere as well as X-men right now.
Sure Lanterns have multiple books,
but the X-men is also the X-Line with multiple books,
and their X-office is as big as Superman office(if not bigger) at the very least.

[kalai]

The intent for GL was definitely there. Wonder Woman and Aquaman despite having successful movies have yet to get anywhere the push GL got around and after his film. If his film was a success we definitely would probably have been introduced to a different in comic universe that revolves more around him similar to Ironman at Marvel maybe. If not more so with space threats coming to Earth and GL being the frontline and face of the JL.

Iron Man actually isn't doing that well comic sales-wise I think,
the most sale Iron Man title got was probably Bendis's Invincible Ironman#1 and that sales number dropped pretty quickly.
DC still tried to push Lantern events after New52, and only First Lantern event worked well enough.
Lights Out and Godhead really went downhills and DC didn't have another Lantern event ever since.

[MoneySpider]

The Ownership of Wonder Woman

https://www.cosmicteams.com/profiles/wonderwoman.html

Ah, thanks.

[Aramis]

As I said in the other post, it should be Aquaman.

1. Unlike Robin, he doesn't depend/rely on another character. Robin doesn't exist without Batman (even though I prefer any Robin over Batman) This also goes for Harley.

2. Unlike GL and The Flash, he's always been the same, just like Diana, Clark and Bruce. You can't be a pillar if the fandom can't even agree whether it's Barry, Wally or Jay; or whether Hal, John, Kyle or Jessica deserves it more. This is very important.

3. Unlike Shazam (and also Hal and Barry) he's been with us since the forties. Sure, it wasn't technically an atlantean or Arthur Curry/Orin, but it's like the Kal-l/Kal-El situation. It's basically the same guy.

4. Just like Clark, Bruce and Diana, he has a whole family around, with a lot of secondary characters (

5. He's very popular (even my grandma knows Aquaman, although more in "fish-joke" terms). He has a billion worthy film, with a sequel incoming.

6. He's the perfect counterpart for Diana, just like Clark and Bruce are to each other. Diana's issue is that she's just the middle point between Batman and Superman, instead of being a third perspective, but in this way, by having a "square", you can actually have two sets of counterparts.
- Relation to greek gods
- Masters of weapons
- Mythical / hidden / forgotten land origin
- Royalty
- Armies at their disposition


7. Funny Extra: it even makes in alphabetical order (Arthur, Bruce, Clark, Diana) and color-wise (the four "main" colors: red, blue, yellow and green)

8. Just look at them!