Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[DrNewGod]

It would be an enormously lost opportunity if they don't do more with him than that after this build up.

I see your point, but to me, it would feel too pat and shallow for Isaiah to suddenly forgive and forget all, especially in a show that has focused so unblinking a gaze onto issues of social justice. If he's to have a journey back to some peace, hope and optimism, it should perhaps be over several episodes, perhaps as a supporting player in more than one MCU series (which would not be at all a bad thing).

[green_garnish]

I see your point, but to me, it would feel too pat and shallow for Isaiah to suddenly forgive and forget all, especially in a show that has focused so unblinking a gaze onto issues of social justice. If he's to have a journey back to some peace, hope and optimism, it should perhaps be over several episodes, perhaps as a supporting player in more than one MCU series (which would not be at all a bad thing).

I don't think you see my point on this one. I don't think Isaiah had any intention of forgiving or forgetting.

[godisawesome]

Walker stopped to consider his downed and defeated opponent before he bashed his head in. He considered his actions and then unleashed his rage. Not sure it counts as heat of the moment at that point.

But otherwise, there is definite truth to your comment and I agree in principle. I've said before, one of the things I love about Walker in this series is the way you can justify his actions with noble and sympathetic motives or see them all as sinister and cold. I definitely think that moment where he kills the Flag smasher is one of those beats. It has an air of both tragedy and entitlement, and probably shouldn't be so readily labelled. Even Walker often seems unsure if he's acting from a place of purpose or ego. It's really well done to leave him ambiguous.

I love that the show can generate these discussions. We SHOULD be talking about people's actions and intentions in this way. Life is complicated and choices have so many things playing into them. Simple good or evil is so much more difficult than legal or criminal, and even that can be murky as all heck.

That’s more accurate to what my opinion of him is - he’s clearly too flawed for the role of Captain America, has some sympathetic characteristics, is a brutal murderer, had objectively honorable goals, and is deep in denial about his actions to the point of being at least mildly delusional.

He’s a genuinely human antagonist, who’s eventual fate is going to come down to what choices he makes in the finale.

Like characters like Loki or Kylo Ren, the performance is strong enough that people can be inclined to give him sympathy.

Unlike Kylo Ren entirely, and better than Loki in spite of his success as a character, there is a substance to why he might gain sympathy.

But also like Loki, and unlike Kylo Ren in TLJ and TROS, the performance and writing are making John Walker a great antagonist and villain for at least a little while longer.

[DrNewGod]

I don't think you see my point on this one. I don't think Isaiah had any intention of forgiving or forgetting.

Ah. Now I see what you're getting at.

[DrNewGod]

That’s more accurate to what my opinion of him is - he’s clearly too flawed for the role of Captain America, has some sympathetic characteristics, is a brutal murderer, had objectively honorable goals, and is deep in denial about his actions to the point of being at least mildly delusional.

He’s a genuinely human antagonist, who’s eventual fate is going to come down to what choices he makes in the finale.

Like characters like Loki or Kylo Ren, the performance is strong enough that people can be inclined to give him sympathy.

Unlike Kylo Ren entirely, and better than Loki in spite of his success as a character, there is a substance to why he might gain sympathy.

But also like Loki, and unlike Kylo Ren in TLJ and TROS, the performance and writing are making John Walker a great antagonist and villain for at least a little while longer.

This I agree with. I've been impressed with Russel's portrayal.

[Frontier]

Just my opinion, but I hope they don't bring Isaiah further than a skeptical "well, let's see what happens" kind of hope. The story has given him a rich, earned, and credible rational for his embittered cynicism. Convincing me that he simply laid that aside on seeing Sam behind the shield might not be impossible, but it would take a genuine feat of authorial skill to deliver in the one episode remaining.

I think he might still get emotional seeing Sam in the suit and shield.

Yeah, it's been bugging me too that a bunch of people online immediately refer to her as "Madame Hydra" (and even mix her up with Viper) even though she was just "The Contessa/Val" for decades before the storyline where she took that mantle. And she only did it because she was a triple agent working for Leviathan (long before DC's organization) and retconned as having been a Russian agent the whole time.

Yeah, I mean, Viper's the real Madame Hydra, although I wonder if AoS is as close as we're going to get to her (Viper was in The Wolverine but now they can use her as Madame Hydra).

[kidfresh512]

I see your point, but to me, it would feel too pat and shallow for Isaiah to suddenly forgive and forget all, especially in a show that has focused so unblinking a gaze onto issues of social justice. If he's to have a journey back to some peace, hope and optimism, it should perhaps be over several episodes, perhaps as a supporting player in more than one MCU series (which would not be at all a bad thing).

I think his next MCU appearances should be around Elijah becoming Patriot. I don't think we need to see Him and Sam having another big conversation about this particular topic again and how's hes doing as Cap until theres a nice chunk of time. Like Some New Avengers Movies etc.

It would dilute their opinions right now to revisit that conversation so soon and be like see they like me! I did it.

It would be cool if Elijah and he start having those talks on his journey to patriot. Like Elijah starts admiring Sam as Cap or something and Isaiah wants him to stay out of the superhero business.

[CosmiComic]

Maybe the final episode will have Eli being inspired by the Avengers and deciding to join in some capacity

[CosmiComic]

I think he might still get emotional seeing Sam in the suit and shield.

Yeah, I mean, Viper's the real Madame Hydra, although I wonder if AoS is as close as we're going to get to her (Viper was in The Wolverine but now they can use her as Madame Hydra).

I was saying elsewhere but it seems the MCU really likes using Z-list villains over B/C-list ones

[ZeroBG82]

Just my opinion, but I hope they don't bring Isaiah further than a skeptical "well, let's see what happens" kind of hope. The story has given him a rich, earned, and credible rational for his embittered cynicism. Convincing me that he simply laid that aside on seeing Sam behind the shield might not be impossible, but it would take a genuine feat of authorial skill to deliver in the one episode remaining.

I agree here. I feel like Isaiah's pain and trauma are too much to simply gloss over with some kind of hopeful turn without him feeling jaded. I could live with a begrudging "We'll see," or see him reacting to someone like Eli having a more positive reaction with a glimmer of potential. But I might like to see them leave anything more than that to future appearances in other projects. Particularly if Marvel is, in fact, building towards an eventual Young Avengers project, where that seems like a meaty bit of character work for his relationship with Eli to ultimately reflect. And I'm not sure this show can devote sufficient time to it given the other characters that are already getting focused on in plot related elements.

[Immortal Weapon]

I was saying elsewhere but it seems the MCU really likes using Z-list villains over B/C-list ones

Z-list villains make for good fodder for the hero's first outing. Why wasted the archnemesis on the first go?

[CosmiComic]

Z-list villains make for good fodder for the hero's first outing. Why wasted the archnemesis on the first go?

But they suck. At least use a lame villain we might see from time to time, instead of a nobody like Darren Cross.

[DrNewGod]

But they suck. At least use a lame villain we might see from time to time, instead of a nobody like Darren Cross.

Dude. Cross was lame in his MCU execution, not in his source. In his comics introduction, he was awesomely horrifying. Kind of sad the story (appropriately) made him a one-and-done.

[CosmiComic]

Dude. Cross was lame in his MCU execution, not in his source. In his comics introduction, he was awesomely horrifying. Kind of sad the story (appropriately) made him a one-and-done.

Maybe he wasn't bad in the comics. I'm not saying put Thanos in the first movie, but at least a recognizable villain.

[godisawesome]

I agree here. I feel like Isaiah's pain and trauma are too much to simply gloss over with some kind of hopeful turn without him feeling jaded. I could live with a begrudging "We'll see," or see him reacting to someone like Eli having a more positive reaction with a glimmer of potential. But I might like to see them leave anything more than that to future appearances in other projects. Particularly if Marvel is, in fact, building towards an eventual Young Avengers project, where that seems like a meaty bit of character work for his relationship with Eli to ultimately reflect. And I'm not sure this show can devote sufficient time to it given the other characters that are already getting focused on in plot related elements.

Isaiah’s retaining his cognizance unlike in the source material and bring a known actor for the role implies to me he might accompany Eli into a potential Young Avengers show and have the more familial nature of any potential conflict there emphasized.