Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[silvercover]

yeah don't forget there still had to be people up on top to make the decision to imprison isiah as well as conduct experiments on him, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that hydra had infiltrated and got info about him. I mean in the first place, they had to know he existed considering that he was the one who stopped their winter soldier once, then they probably kept tabs on his status in case he would be deployed again against them.

[Adam West]

Are we assuming that's the shield he gives Sam, the same shield in "F&tWS?" At least that would explain where Old Steve got that shield he gives to Sam. It's be nice if it were actually the same shield, but that hasn't ever been confirmed, has it?

It's not the same shield. The one that Steve used for the final battle in Endgame is already broken to pieces.
When Steve went back to returned the stones, he didn't have a shield. The shield that he gave Sam was forged in the timeline where Steve lived his live with Peggy.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's not the same shield. The one that Steve used for the final battle in Endgame is already broken to pieces.
When Steve went back to returned the stones, he didn't have a shield. The shield that he gave Sam was forged in the timeline where Steve lived his live with Peggy.

In that timeline, one presumes that that Steve would be frozen with his shield.

Has Marvel explains where this shield came from? Kinda an important thing that could be solved with a few lines of dialogue, lol

[Besouro]

yeah don't forget there still had to be people up on top to make the decision to imprison isiah as well as conduct experiments on him, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that hydra had infiltrated and got info about him. I mean in the first place, they had to know he existed considering that he was the one who stopped their winter soldier once, then they probably kept tabs on his status in case he would be deployed again against them.

You forgot that the govt think Isaiah is dead but some nurse who was involved in the experiments took pity on him then she falsified the records that he died in one of the experiments...which means he escaped prison even though Isaiah didn't say it directly.

So as per the U.S govt, They think Isaiah is dead so even their records (when/if accessed by Hydra spies) would also show that Isaiah is dead so they will not have any reason to hunt for him.

[Immortal Weapon]

Rewatching the episode where Sharon is talking with Batroc, is she responsible for the kidnapping in the opening scene of the series? From their convo she's worked with him before and apparently the person who got him out of prison.

[godisawesome]

How weird is it that people are missing the point with John Walker. So three examples

1. Person 1 on twitter" I wasn't a fan before but when John Walker hit guy with Shield , I became a real fan"

2. Rob Liefield on twitter "John Walker Rules"

3. New York post " Marvel is turning an American hero into a villain"

So lets be clear there is nothing wrong for liking John Walker or feeling sympathy for the character BUT he is clear being written as wrong. This is not a redemption story yet this is a story of character going further down the darkside. IMO You shouldn't be rooting for John Walker as yet so it is weird seeing people back John Walker beyond understanding how he got to this point.

If Marvel puts him on the redemption path fine but he is clear going to get worse than better right now. Now with that said because I have seen rumors of it, I think it fun to mention that West Coast Avengers is more and more possible Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, War Machine are around. US Agent is now in play as well. Moonknight is coming. They just need to introduce Tigra and Wonder Man. Bring back Adriana Palaki to play Mockingbird

They’ve clearly pitched Walker as being representative of a particular type of American archetype... and some people don’t want to get with the critical analysis of it, and backwards extrapolate a story where they’re okay for liking him as a representative of themselves. On the other hand, there are people who themselves understand the point he presents and accept it, but think he’s a good character to watch.

It’s a fine line that kind of has to be evaluated person-by-person, and will inevitably expose some weirdly ignored double standards by those fans... and some creators. I mean, Kylo Ren in Star Wars was a 100% unlikeable douchebag who was a shallow as hell entitled monster whose first film coded him even in #MeToo terms - but Rian Johnson thought he was some kind of parable of sympathetic adolescent angst women couldn’t possibly avoid being attracted to.

John Walker is a small town football star turned awarded war vet that the government tries to cut ties with after a personal tragedy and failing that cost him his friend and another man his life. Add in actual context and themes from the show around him, and he’s clearly an antagonist and a deeply flawed and violent man who’s going to need to be stopped... but ignore all that because you want to, and he’s very much some people’s idea of who should be Captain America.

[kidfresh512]

Rewatching the episode where Sharon is talking with Batroc, is she responsible for the kidnapping in the opening scene of the series? From their convo she's worked with him before and apparently the person who got him out of prison.

Seemingly yes. She flat out said she broke him out of Algerian prison and she would pay him double this time. This will be the biggest issue I have with the series if its not explained satisfactorily. If they make her the powerbroker and there isnt some really compelling reason. Like shes undercover infiltrating something and isnt really "evil". I can buy that thats in character and its easily explainable by her past her resume, and her personal interactions with Sam and Bucky.

I cannot buy her just becoming evil, producing more super soldier serum that got stolen by flag smashers , Hiring Batroc who flat out wants Sam dead. It doesnt make any sense. And you guys forgot about me over here isn't remotely good enough for that.

[Frontier]

Seemingly yes. She flat out said she broke him out of Algerian prison and she would pay him double this time. This will be the biggest issue I have with the series if its not explained satisfactorily. If they make her the powerbroker and there isnt some really compelling reason. Like shes undercover infiltrating something and isnt really "evil". I can buy that thats in character and its easily explainable by her past her resume, and her personal interactions with Sam and Bucky.

I cannot buy her just becoming evil, producing more super soldier serum that got stolen by flag smashers , Hiring Batroc who flat out wants Sam dead. It doesnt make any sense. And you guys forgot about me over here isn't remotely good enough for that.

I can live with Sharon being a little morally ambiguous after what happened to her, but still leaning toward the side of the angels, but not outright making her a villain.

[TooFlyToFail]

How weird is it that people are missing the point with John Walker. So three examples

1. Person 1 on twitter" I wasn't a fan before but when John Walker hit guy with Shield , I became a real fan"

2. Rob Liefield on twitter "John Walker Rules"

3. New York post " Marvel is turning an American hero into a villain"

So lets be clear there is nothing wrong for liking John Walker or feeling sympathy for the character BUT he is clear being written as wrong. This is not a redemption story yet this is a story of character going further down the darkside. IMO You shouldn't be rooting for John Walker as yet so it is weird seeing people back John Walker beyond understanding how he got to this point.

If Marvel puts him on the redemption path fine but he is clear going to get worse than better right now. Now with that said because I have seen rumors of it, I think it fun to mention that West Coast Avengers is more and more possible Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, War Machine are around. US Agent is now in play as well. Moonknight is coming. They just need to introduce Tigra and Wonder Man. Bring back Adriana Palaki to play Mockingbird

Many people are rooting for him, because the reaction to him is like he's a villain, irredeemable or evil, when he's literally done nothing to garner such a response beyond not being Steve.

Some people also think the DM trying to murder him for no reason was horrible.

[TooFlyToFail]

They’ve clearly pitched Walker as being representative of a particular type of American archetype... and some people don’t want to get with the critical analysis of it, and backwards extrapolate a story where they’re okay for liking him as a representative of themselves. On the other hand, there are people who themselves understand the point he presents and accept it, but think he’s a good character to watch.

It’s a fine line that kind of has to be evaluated person-by-person, and will inevitably expose some weirdly ignored double standards by those fans... and some creators. I mean, Kylo Ren in Star Wars was a 100% unlikeable douchebag who was a shallow as hell entitled monster whose first film coded him even in #MeToo terms - but Rian Johnson thought he was some kind of parable of sympathetic adolescent angst women couldn’t possibly avoid being attracted to.

John Walker is a small town football star turned awarded war vet that the government tries to cut ties with after a personal tragedy and failing that cost him his friend and another man his life. Add in actual context and themes from the show around him, and he’s clearly an antagonist and a deeply flawed and violent man who’s going to need to be stopped... but ignore all that because you want to, and he’s very much some people’s idea of who should be Captain America.

He's supposed to be that archetype, but he's way more sympathetic than that. He's not a horrible person, he's constantly doing bad things, and he's not even misogynistic. He's a regular dude that became a elite soldier and probably looked up to Steve. People forget that Walker is many years their junior. He got into West Point around the time the Avengers assembled.

The dude has done messed up stuff to serve his country and is haunted by those deeds. Those deeds made him a good soldier tho, which is why he was made Cap. They made him Cap, but forgot that Cap wasn't just a regular dude. Steve didn't have a horrible military history prior to becoming Cap, and he was a super soldier. Walker was always destined to fail because he has disadvantages that Steve didn't.

That's why he's sympathetic. Not because he's white or a patriot. It's because, similar with Isaiah and many soldiers, he was built by the government to do what they want and then when they become something the government no longer has any need for, or want nothing to do with, they're tossed aside and forgotten about or erased..

[ZeroBG82]

Many people are rooting for him, because the reaction to him is like he's a villain, irredeemable or evil, when he's literally done nothing to garner such a response beyond not being Steve.

Some people also think the DM trying to murder him for no reason was horrible.

Cold blooded murder? Pretty sure that makes you a villain. And I'll apply that to the far more sympathetic Karli just the same as Walker. Lines were crossed. Sympathetic or not, they are both villains now.

And the Dora weren't trying to murder Walker, so kindly stop with that. If they wanted him dead he would be dead, they dominated that fight. He stood between them and Zemo, so they removed him from that path. Hell, they didn't even hurt him when they did it. At least physically. His emotional shattering speaks for itself, but is largely his own doing.

[Besouro]

Rewatching the episode where Sharon is talking with Batroc, is she responsible for the kidnapping in the opening scene of the series? From their convo she's worked with him before and apparently the person who got him out of prison.

It seems so.... But I suspect the power broker is La Fontaine/Madame Hydra. Sharon is probably working for her probably undercover to take down La Fontaine's organisation.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Cold blooded murder? Pretty sure that makes you a villain. And I'll apply that to the far more sympathetic Karli just the same as Walker. Lines were crossed. Sympathetic or not, they are both villains now.

And the Dora weren't trying to murder Walker, so kindly stop with that. If they wanted him dead he would be dead, they dominated that fight. He stood between them and Zemo, so they removed him from that path. Hell, they didn't even hurt him when they did it. At least physically. His emotional shattering speaks for itself, but is largely his own doing.

In fairness, Walker's actions were anything but cold blooded. He'd just seen his best friend murdered, in a plot to kill Walker himself. Walker lost control, and murdered a surrendering terrorist.

Two things can be true, after all. The man killed was no saint and they did provoke Walker, but that does not by any measure, make Walker's actions right.

[Besouro]

He's supposed to be that archetype, but he's way more sympathetic than that. He's not a horrible person, he's constantly doing bad things, and he's not even misogynistic. He's a regular dude that became a elite soldier and probably looked up to Steve. People forget that Walker is many years their junior. He got into West Point around the time the Avengers assembled.

The dude has done messed up stuff to serve his country and is haunted by those deeds. Those deeds made him a good soldier tho, which is why he was made Cap. They made him Cap, but forgot that Cap wasn't just a regular dude. Steve didn't have a horrible military history prior to becoming Cap, and he was a super soldier. Walker was always destined to fail because he has disadvantages that Steve didn't.

That's why he's sympathetic. Not because he's white or a patriot. It's because, similar with Isaiah and many soldiers, he was built by the government to do what they want and then when they become something the government no longer has any need for, or want nothing to do with, they're tossed aside and forgotten about or erased..

Nicely said.....agreed and co-signed!

[inisideguy]

I think the show is doing some things well. The whole dynamic between Sam and Bucky, their story and Walkers story. But man Zemo was just sort of brought out to prance around, Sharon is barely developed, the flag smashers just sort of wander around and are mad about stuff. To me it just seems like a lot of this is chopped up. I don't know why I am suppose to care about the Flag Smashers, or Sharon for that matter. She is barely in the show but is having some impact. Zemo was interesting but he walks around, doesnt like super soldiers goes back to prison. I don't know how you can possibly solve these issues for me in the last episode.