Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[CosmiComic]

Sometimes I stop and think about what it would be like if the MCU had managed to get up and running in the 1990s. Not in terms of actors or effects but in terms of what story material was available. And I realize that we probably would have gotten this character at least by Captain America 3. Bucky would also be a dead teenager. It's all kind of wild to think about.

Honestly, I just hope they don't turn him into a villain. Not because I particularly like Walker, but because it's a really easy direction to take. Especially in a time when so much conservative politics has descended into barely veiled racism, classism and sexism. I mean, like, it would be way too easy to turn this guy into a less powerful version of Homelander. Maybe just make him a lousy Captain America but not really a terrible person.

If it was made in the 90s, Civil war wouldn't have been made. But maybe Thunderstrike would already be in a movie

Well conservatism's downfall is no one's fault but conservatism's.

I hope he's not evil just misguided

[Frontier]

One thing's got me curious.

Sam's wings aren't Wakanda original like they are in the books. He likely has the best wings, but the government has the patent. Why aren't there other Falcon units/soldiers?

Propietary Stark Tech?

Although wasn't it originally military gear that Sam used as a parajumper?

[Hiromi]

the basic wings were, stuff like the missiles and drone were Stark addons and he probably overhauled them all in general to the point that they're far above the basic military model he had originally

[Dzetoun]

Think of it this way. The bank doesn't look at this as giving The Falcon a loan. The bank looks at this as a celebrity trying to get his family a loan. That can get sideways real fast real hard. And yeah, there's some odds fanboy behavior might win the day, but I can completely buy what happened in the bank. I can even get The Falcon not getting what his celebrity will or won't buy.

I think this is a good way to approach it. Banks are creatures of protocol and procedure, indeed of out-and-out algorithms. There has just been two worldwide events that took all of the standards and evidence and assumptions on which those algorithms are built and threw them straight into the garbage. Indeed, the problems with banks are just a sliver of the problems with the whole legal system. How do you decide who owns apartments? What do you do about paid out insurance policies? How do you deal with debts cancelled when someone blipped? The law is just not set up to deal with people coming back from the dead. It makes sense that banks, of all institutions, would go into a defensive crouch and demand diamond plated assurances of the type Sam can't provide, hero or not.

As far as contacting Pepper, as said above he doesn't know her as far as we have been shown. Besides, he was one of Cap's Avengers, not one of Tony's. It would be a very awkward conversation to say "Uh, Ms. Potts, we haven't met and I fought really hard against your husband that time and I know things are crazy and you have just been widowed and all, but could you see your way clear to half-a-million for old times sake?" Tony or Quill could get away with something like that, as (for totally different reasons) could Vision. It isn't in Sam's personality.

Oh, and thus does help answer the question of why Sam and Bucky weren't trying to help Wanda. They were both buried under their own problems. Also, we know that Sam tried to text Bucky and got ignored. It's perfectly plausible he also shot a few texts Wanda's way and got the same (lack of) response. If we want, we could also fold Wanda's situation into Rhodey's remark about how everything is a mess and some friends are now enemies.

While talking about Rhodey, it was obvious that he was troubled that Sam didn't keep the shield. There could be many levels to his discomfort, but as an Air Force colonel he may well have had a bad suspicion, if not whispered intelligence, about what DoD would likely do once they got the shield back. His response to Sam has all the earmarks of an older mentor figure who admires his young friend's courage and morals, but has a bad feeling that naivety is about to give way to heartbreak.

[Conn Seanery]

One thing's got me curious.

Sam's wings aren't Wakanda original like they are in the books. He likely has the best wings, but the government has the patent. Why aren't there other Falcon units/soldiers?

I think it was experimental at the time it was first used, they didn't actually have full units. Might be expensive too, they had to steal the only version of it left for Sam in Civil War, IIRC.

I could see them potentially going that way (or already doing so) since they've seen how effective Sam uses it and have already given him a newer version.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Propietary Stark Tech?

Although wasn't it originally military gear that Sam used as a parajumper?

The original system was military tech, and he had a partner. Maybe it was deemed too dangerous?

[Immortal Weapon]

Sam was also a wanted criminal for a couple years, can't imagine that's good for the credit rating

Seeing how he's going contract work for the government and living with his sister he must have gotten a pardon just like Bucky.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Seeing how he's going contract work for the government and living with his sister he must have gotten a pardon just like Bucky.

Yeah, but a credit record remembers all

Wonder how much he gets paid...

[Frontier]

While talking about Rhodey, it was obvious that he was troubled that Sam didn't keep the shield. There could be many levels to his discomfort, but as an Air Force colonel he may well have had a bad suspicion, if not whispered intelligence, about what DoD would likely do once they got the shield back. His response to Sam has all the earmarks of an older mentor figure who admires his young friend's courage and morals, but has a bad feeling that naivety is about to give way to heartbreak.

Rhodey also knows how badly giving the government hi-tech weaponry can go over when he gave them (and Hammer) access to an Iron Man armor.

I think it was experimental at the time it was first used, they didn't actually have full units. Might be expensive too, they had to steal the only version of it left for Sam in Civil War, IIRC.

I could see them potentially going that way (or already doing so) since they've seen how effective Sam uses it and have already given him a newer version.

It would be kind of interesting if they rope in Torres to be Walker's Falcon because they think he might need one for optics and that causes Sam to hate Walker more.

Although Walker's Falcon was Battlestar, so I'm curious if he might show up at some point.

The original system was military tech, and he had a partner. Maybe it was deemed too dangerous?

Could also have been difficult for all but a select few to master.

[godisawesome]

I think they should be nuanced without defaulting to a both sides attitude. Sometimes a blunt message is ok, even preferable. As long as it doesn't turn into a 90's PSA

That’s my idea as well, both from my personal view fo ethics, necessary messages needed right now... and because I think form a purely entertainment-first perspective, the better threat and running theme for the MCU would be a rise in authoritarianism, to better facilitate the X-Men when they get here, and to possibly be codified by the Dark Avengers.

Nuance *is* the best way to deconstruct what Walker has wrong about being “American”... but it needs to be clear above all else, and the politics spectrum isn’t really binary at all.

[CosmiComic]

That’s my idea as well, both from my personal view fo ethics, necessary messages needed right now... and because I think form a purely entertainment-first perspective, the better threat and running theme for the MCU would be a rise in authoritarianism, to better facilitate the X-Men when they get here, and to possibly be codified by the Dark Avengers.

Nuance *is* the best way to deconstruct what Walker has wrong about being “American”... but it needs to be clear above all else, and the politics spectrum isn’t really binary at all.

Yeah. Anti-authoritarianism and maybe egalitarianism can be the driving political point. Avoid extremism but also unnecessary centrism, especially when it comes to things like racism

Although as others have pointed out, the MCU being too close to real life militarism undercuts that somewhat

[ZeroBG82]

So basically, Sam is in the employ of the government, and Sword would have rather have desecrated Vision's body to handle Wanda, vs. asking Sam to talk her down.

Yeah, them Accords are great...

Sam is in the employ of the government by the time of F+WS, but that is said to be months after the vanished returned. Wandavision was a matter of weeks after. Sam may not have been working yet by that point. Rhodey would have been more likely, but doesn't have the same rapport with Wanda, plus having just lost Tony himself. Wandavision happened so quickly after Endgame I don't know that it's so surprising that there was no good response to the situation. There was a lot going on with billions of people suddenly reappearing.

Also, as has been pointed out by other posters, Hayward didn't want anybody coming in to handle Wanda. He wanted her wrapped up quietly, so his little Vision project could carry on without issue. I suspect Sam would have had a thing or two to say about something like rebuilding Viz if they'd called him, or any other Avenger in.

[Frontier]

The great tragedy of the New Avengers is how little we got to see the team actually interact.

Did Sam even exchange a single line of dialogue with Wanda and Vision? Maybe briefly when they saved them from the Black Order, but that's probably about it. And they were on a team together for a...nebulous amount of time.

[Midvillian1322]

Think of it this way. The bank doesn't look at this as giving The Falcon a loan. The bank looks at this as a celebrity trying to get his family a loan. That can get sideways real fast real hard. And yeah, there's some odds fanboy behavior might win the day, but I can completely buy what happened in the bank. I can even get The Falcon not getting what his celebrity will or won't buy.

Think of it this way, in the general public mind, The Falcon might be like a really talented college athlete entering private business, with what a bank sees as a flawed plan, and no eight-figure pro contract to support him. I kind of think that's why they had the banker ask him if he played for LSU.

As for the first episode itself, this looks like Feige, et al. have, yet again, pounded another homer. We got a lot of series left to go, with plenty of opportunities for things to get messed up, but this was an outstanding first episode. Awesome action mixed with compellingly complex story.

Did anybody else fall into the trap of assuming Bucky's buddy, credited as Yori, was The Howling Commando Jim Morita? And by the way, spoilers:

the picture of Yori's son kicked me square in the sensitives. I didn't see it coming, and ... wow ... that hurt!

end of spoilers

All said, I'm deeply happy.

No to Morita. He's got family and I think is dead. we know this because his grandson is Peter Parkers principle.


So happy they didn't kill Batroc. I love GSP as this character. They give him little acting and just have him fight. Now if he has a bigger role and has to really act it might get dicey. But as someone who's smug and kicks ass he works. Hope he pops up with Zemo.

[CosmiComic]

The great tragedy of the New Avengers is how little we got to see the team actually interact.

Did Sam even exchange a single line of dialogue with Wanda and Vision? Maybe briefly when they saved them from the Black Order, but that's probably about it. And they were on a team together for a...nebulous amount of time.

Yeah, that bugged me. They should have been shown as working together more closely.