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  1. #1141
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danteipp View Post
    The choice of John Walker, presumably by the old dude/government official or part of his cabal (GRC or Power Broker?), seems like a purposefully diabolical decision.

    On the surface, a war hero (three times over), who is in peak regular human conditioning, willing to do whatever he can to complete a mission while also protecting his fellow soldiers seems ideal.

    But it is also very clear that Walker is suffering from PTSD, is imbalanced and his medals came at great personal cost. I assume he would have preferred to be the one to die while his fellow soldiers survived. Any time he loses someone now, it probably causes a complete psychotic break.

    There is no way Walker should have been selected to be the new Cap based on his current mental issues. Taking the shield from Sam, in order to give it to Walker and cause people to lose trust in everything Steve built, definitely helps people like the Power Broker, GRC, etc. People have no idea who or what they can trust and it fractures society even further.

    I honestly wonder if Bucky's psychologist is either directly involved or if we find out she was also counseling Walker and the government (illegally) accessed her files to set Walker up as a patsy?

    I really can't hate on Walker, he was placed in an impossible situation. He seemingly wasn't ready to go back into regular military action, let alone equipped to try to replace the greatest soldier in history.

    In the end, I hope we get to see Sam take on and embrace the shield. Meanwhile Bucky, who admittedly knows crazy/PTSD, should have some compassion for Walker's mental issues, losing soldiers and friends, etc. and convince him to get help so he can start redeeming himself and transition to U.S. Agent or, even better, Nomad. Let Walker distance himself from the government as Nomad and just do what is right.
    Unfortunately, the writers didn't take the show as seriously as this.

  2. #1142
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    The way this series uses Sam is at odds with itself. So Sam, the therapist/counselor for damaged soldiers, doesn't show any sympathy towards Walker regarding Lemar'a death? Instead he just goes to the shield. What?

    Didn't he just try to emphasize with Karli, aka murderer of innocent civilians? The person who nearly successfully orchestrated the assassination of Walker to create an international incident? But he can't see the guy is distraught over the lost of his best friend, something he can relate to? Like it's right there, and writers just drop the ball.

    A couple of points. First, even Steve made mistakes. He wasn't perfect, we shouldn't expect Sam to be either. And Walker being Cap is a very public slap in the face to Sam, who viewed Cap as just Steve. No Steve, no Cap. It can't be easy working with the guy who represents the government stabbing you in the back to replace your best friend.

    As to your first point, I point you to TWS. "I don't think he's the kind of guy you save. He's the kind you stop." Walker needed to be stopped. He's a fully powered super soldier with a deadly weapon and he just slaughtered a guy in public. Sympathize all you want, and empathize later. But first you bring the man to heel.

    Now, I agree that Sam could have done better to de-escalate the situation. He was clearly thrown by what Walker had done, amd while wearing that uniform no less. But he messed up, and then he did the best with what he had.

  3. #1143
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    One thing I think last episode established pretty well was that when our costumed heroes/associates know they’re facing super soldiers, they show considerably greater success bringing their training to bear in combat, including Walker once he gets the serum himself. Sam especially shows considerable skill in using his tech and skills to go toe-to-toe successfully, though we also see Bucky and Walker generally prove superior one-on-one.

    One thing I’m curious about with Walker, though, is how much he was set up as a propaganda piece or seen as an actual operative - a pistol isn’t exactly likely to be the kind of weaponry he most excels at, and while he was capable fo doing some shield stuff without the serum, he still seems under equipped for anything beyond what amounts to police work.

    Was Walker meant to be the GRC’s idea of how to do a propaganda piece? Or did someone in the GRC really think “Just give a great soldier a shield!”
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Grey View Post
    Is it possible Walker was simply meant to be a symbol to help with despair post-blip, but he took it too seriously? As in, minus the SS he was never meant to really replace Steve but somehow he's the only one that wasn't in on that fact? Or at least deluded himself to think he could prove folks wrong, that he could be as good as Steve or even better.
    If only the show actually explored the GRC, at all. Should've definitely just been an 8-10 episode series, at the very least.

  4. #1144
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    A couple of points. First, even Steve made mistakes. He wasn't perfect, we shouldn't expect Sam to be either. And Walker being Cap is a very public slap in the face to Sam, who viewed Cap as just Steve. No Steve, no Cap. It can't be easy working with the guy who represents the government stabbing you in the back to replace your best friend.

    As to your first point, I point you to TWS. "I don't think he's the kind of guy you save. He's the kind you stop." Walker needed to be stopped. He's a fully powered super soldier with a deadly weapon and he just slaughtered a guy in public. Sympathize all you want, and empathize later. But first you bring the man to heel.

    Now, I agree that Sam could have done better to de-escalate the situation. He was clearly thrown by what Walker had done, amd while wearing that uniform no less. But he messed up, and then he did the best with what he had.
    Still, the show doesn't talk about Steve like he was flawed and neither do most of the people that talk about the show. Most just hate Walker for not being Steve.

    Sam, is supposed to be above that. If he can talk to a person who killed innocent civilians, and can talk to a dude who just killed someone who just tried to assassinate him.

    What you said, would have more weight if Sam ever acknowledged his mistakes dealing with Walker, but it brushes past it.

    Again, this show is confused. Walker is nearly murdered and killed by the DM, unprovoked, and the show frames it as "cool, yeah beat up Fake Cap yeah!". Then it shows that the dude sufferers from PTSD, is ashamed of his accolades, and sees this job as something good he can potentially accomplish. Next him killing the guy that was holding him down for assassination is framed as "look at this lunatic, get that monster away from the shield, Steve!!"

    That's clunky as hell lol.

  5. #1145
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Well, and Steve Rogers never saw war prior to becoming a super soldier. Walker came into the role a seasoned veteran, with PTSD, traumatized and morally conflicted over his service. Steve started out as Captain America as an innocent, idealistic young teenager and pretty much stayed that way. People forget that he was only 18-20 in TFA because he looks much older. He's just a kid. Walker is, what, in his 30s? Steve had been bullied, but thats not quite the same as going to war!

    Rogers acted like he could relate to guys like Sam or Walker, but he couldn't possibly relate to all of it. Thats not a knock on Steve, but its part of why he was the way he was.
    Exactly. Something I brought up to a friend, and really changed the way she looked at the show. She went from cheering the DM trying to kill Walker to cringing on a second viewing.

  6. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    The way this series uses Sam is at odds with itself. So Sam, the therapist/counselor for damaged soldiers, doesn't show any sympathy towards Walker regarding Lemar'a death? Instead he just goes to the shield. What?

    Didn't he just try to emphasize with Karli, aka murderer of innocent civilians? The person who nearly successfully orchestrated the assassination of Walker to create an international incident? But he can't see the guy is distraught over the lost of his best friend, something he can relate to? Like it's right there, and writers just drop the ball.

    If he's supposed to be the "perfect" successor to Steve, you'd think he'd take the high road and work with Walker...if only to make sure he can potentially do the job. Instead, he plays it petty and bitter, as if he didn't give up the shield.

    This show is just weird. The SSS is potentially bad, yes, but Sam, Lemar and Walker were normal dudes going against a squad of super soldiers. Regardless of the man Steve was, Walker and Lemar were expected not only to be a symbol, but also deal with the same problems that Steve did....and Steve could only do the things he did because he was a super soldier. This is ridiculous. Tony and Thor both wanted power, and they're considered good people as well as jerks. This either or nonsense with SSS, and those who do and don't seek power, runs counter to the guy who saved the universe.

    Then there's the framing. The DM were framed to be cool, when they tried to murder and then kill Walker for no reason. That doesn't change the fact that they tried to kill a Captain America, unprovoked.

    Without Zemo and Walker, I don't think the show would be as entertaining as it is honestly.
    He did try to reach through to Walker though. He didn't vilify him, he said Walker made a mistake and that he would be okay if he gave himself up and face justice for his actions, it only escalated when Sam brought up how he had to give the shield back but that wasn't what Sam opened up with. He was trying to be as soft with him as he could be given the circumstances. But I don't think he brought up the shield over pettiness or bitterness, he just genuinely didn't think Walker should still have it at that point after what he did.

    I don't think Sam judged Walker for taking the serum. It isn't even that the Flag-Smashers are evil for taking the serum. It's what the actions they take after taking the serum that truly define them. Zemo is the one who thinks Super Soldiers are inherently evil.

    The Doras just do what they do with impunity.

    I think people are enjoying enough of the Sam and Bucky stuff to be entertained but it's all part of the show in the end.

  7. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Unfortunately, the writers didn't take the show as seriously as this.
    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    If only the show actually explored the GRC, at all. Should've definitely just been an 8-10 episode series, at the very least.
    I totally agree that there needed to be more episodes (probably at least two more) to really show:

    - The loss Walker clearly suffered,
    - More focus on Isaiah and/or Sam talking in an extended meeting with Elijah,
    - The motivations behind the GRC, introduce their key people and some of their questionable, backroom dealings, etc., and
    - Shed a little more light on the Power Broker's organization (even if they wanted to hold back his/her identity until the end).

    I have been entertained by the series but there have been so many missed opportunities.

    Maybe they will show the losses and men Walker lost, but it will probably be a fast and dirty flashback, when it could have shown his penultimate mission, heroism, sacrifice, etc. by taking up 1/4 to 1/2 of an episode on its own. Then show his PTSD and instability, while being shoehorned into the role as the new Captain America.

    I am also surprised Bucky has not been more sympathetic to Walker. Like he said, he knows crazy and he got help from multiple people from Cap, presumably the Black Widow to the entire nation of Wakanda. If anyone should be sympathetic to another soldier and trying to stop them from a bad end, it should be him.

    I am not sure if it was due to the pandemic, rewrites or what, but opportunities have been missed.

  8. #1148
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    Quote Originally Posted by danteipp View Post
    I totally agree that there needed to be more episodes (probably at least two more) to really show:

    - The loss Walker clearly suffered,
    - More focus on Isaiah and/or Sam talking in an extended meeting with Elijah,
    - The motivations behind the GRC, introduce their key people and some of their questionable, backroom dealings, etc., and
    - Shed a little more light on the Power Broker's organization (even if they wanted to hold back his/her identity until the end).

    I have been entertained by the series but there have been so many missed opportunities.

    Maybe they will show the losses and men Walker lost, but it will probably be a fast and dirty flashback, when it could have shown his penultimate mission, heroism, sacrifice, etc. by taking up 1/4 to 1/2 of an episode on its own. Then show his PTSD and instability, while being shoehorned into the role as the new Captain America.

    I am also surprised Bucky has not been more sympathetic to Walker. Like he said, he knows crazy and he got help from multiple people from Cap, presumably the Black Widow to the entire nation of Wakanda. If anyone should be sympathetic to another soldier and trying to stop them from a bad end, it should be him.

    I am not sure if it was due to the pandemic, rewrites or what, but opportunities have been missed.
    I don't think we'll be getting any military flashbacks with Walker.

    I think we got enough with Isaiah that we needed.

    I think Bucky was too close to Steve to look at Walker fairly from the get-go.

  9. #1149
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    John Walker's story is sad.

    I do fell that Sam was trying to reach out to him and de-escalate, but then messed up by asking for the shield.

    And man, Bucky has been nerfed hard in this series!
    He went from being so powerful with SS serum and cybernetic arm that Steve and Natasha could barely hold their own against him in Winter Soldier.
    To getting his ass beat by a guy who's been a SS for like a day.

  10. #1150
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    The one rather abnormal/inconsistent thing with Zemo and his mission is that you would think he would be more technophobic or anti-artificial intelligence than simply anti-super soldier now.

    After all, it was Ultron, created by two scientists (Stark and Banner as normal scientists, not necessarily Iron Man and the Hulk battling it out), who ended up getting his family killed. Sure beings with extraordinary abilities failed to protect everyone and moved on when he couldn't. And I can understand his initial motivations for trying to get them to kill each other in a civil war.

    But they also stopped the entire planet from being wiped out by Thanos and, on their second attempt, brought back half the population of the universe.

    If anything, at this point he should either be trying to wipe out anything Stark built/remains of his legacy in terms of questionable technological advances, or going after any government agency or private company trying to make more Visions or other AI that can wreak havoc on the world and kill humans more efficiently.

  11. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Still, the show doesn't talk about Steve like he was flawed and neither do most of the people that talk about the show. Most just hate Walker for not being Steve.

    Sam, is supposed to be above that. If he can talk to a person who killed innocent civilians, and can talk to a dude who just killed someone who just tried to assassinate him.

    What you said, would have more weight if Sam ever acknowledged his mistakes dealing with Walker, but it brushes past it.

    Again, this show is confused. Walker is nearly murdered and killed by the DM, unprovoked, and the show frames it as "cool, yeah beat up Fake Cap yeah!". Then it shows that the dude sufferers from PTSD, is ashamed of his accolades, and sees this job as something good he can potentially accomplish. Next him killing the guy that was holding him down for assassination is framed as "look at this lunatic, get that monster away from the shield, Steve!!"

    That's clunky as hell lol.
    I don't think the idea is much different than themes explored in the recent punisher show. There are some people you just can't help.

  12. #1152
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    Quote Originally Posted by danteipp View Post
    The one rather abnormal/inconsistent thing with Zemo and his mission is that you would think he would be more technophobic or anti-artificial intelligence than simply anti-super soldier now.

    After all, it was Ultron, created by two scientists (Stark and Banner as normal scientists, not necessarily Iron Man and the Hulk battling it out), who ended up getting his family killed. Sure beings with extraordinary abilities failed to protect everyone and moved on when he couldn't. And I can understand his initial motivations for trying to get them to kill each other in a civil war.

    But they also stopped the entire planet from being wiped out by Thanos and, on their second attempt, brought back half the population of the universe.

    If anything, at this point he should either be trying to wipe out anything Stark built/remains of his legacy in terms of questionable technological advances, or going after any government agency or private company trying to make more Visions or other AI that can wreak havoc on the world and kill humans more efficiently.
    I feel Zemo still is mostly motivated by what happened to his family, because he's a former aristocrat of sorts

    Admittedly him being anti-super isn't something I've totally been on board with

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyusmax View Post
    John Walker's story is sad.

    I do fell that Sam was trying to reach out to him and de-escalate, but then messed up by asking for the shield.

    And man, Bucky has been nerfed hard in this series!
    He went from being so powerful with SS serum and cybernetic arm that Steve and Natasha could barely hold their own against him in Winter Soldier.
    To getting his ass beat by a guy who's been a SS for like a day.

    I get what you are saying. But remember as the winter soldier he was basically programmed to not stop, not think, not do anything except kill. His mindset psychologically is way different now and that will affect his combat.

  14. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think we'll be getting any military flashbacks with Walker.

    I think we got enough with Isaiah that we needed.

    I think Bucky was too close to Steve to look at Walker fairly from the get-go.
    Not learning the exact reason why Walker earned those medals and the cost to himself, which he railed about during his court martial (was it an official court martial or something else?), would be a terrible oversight to the overall story.

    John is seemingly stamping at least one of those medals into his new shield and it has been talked about since he was chosen as the new Cap, they really need to show or at least quickly explain what happened to create the fear and anger in him of losing fellow soldiers.

  15. #1155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I feel Zemo still is mostly motivated by what happened to his family, because he's a former aristocrat of sorts

    Admittedly him being anti-super isn't something I've totally been on board with
    Revenge for what happened to his family is definitely what motivates him and probably the only thing keeping him from killing himself right now, like when he tried to shoot himself at the end of Civil War.

    Like you said, Zemo being anti-super (especially a run-of-the-mill super soldier who you can kill with some well-placed bullets), should fall well below taking down an agency like S.W.O.R.D.

    Remember Hayward's mission statement from WandaVision where they have, "Shifted away from manned missions and refocused on robotics, nanotech, A.I. Sentient Weapons, like it says on the door."

    Insane Vision duplicates are far more dangerous than an entire platoon of super soldiers.

    Although I guess the writers wanted to bring in Zemo for dramatic effect, tension and style, so they can't change his underlying motivation now.

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