Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[ZeroBG82]

In fairness, Walker's actions were anything but cold blooded. He'd just seen his best friend murdered, in a plot to kill Walker himself. Walker lost control, and murdered a surrendering terrorist.

Two things can be true, after all. The man killed was no saint and they did provoke Walker, but that does not by any measure, make Walker's actions right.

Walker stopped to consider his downed and defeated opponent before he bashed his head in. He considered his actions and then unleashed his rage. Not sure it counts as heat of the moment at that point.

But otherwise, there is definite truth to your comment and I agree in principle. I've said before, one of the things I love about Walker in this series is the way you can justify his actions with noble and sympathetic motives or see them all as sinister and cold. I definitely think that moment where he kills the Flag smasher is one of those beats. It has an air of both tragedy and entitlement, and probably shouldn't be so readily labelled. Even Walker often seems unsure if he's acting from a place of purpose or ego. It's really well done to leave him ambiguous.

I love that the show can generate these discussions. We SHOULD be talking about people's actions and intentions in this way. Life is complicated and choices have so many things playing into them. Simple good or evil is so much more difficult than legal or criminal, and even that can be murky as all heck.

[CosmiComic]

I love that the show can generate these discussions. We SHOULD be talking about people's actions and intentions in this way. Life is complicated and choices have so many things playing into them. Simple good or evil is so much more difficult than legal or criminal, and even that can be murky as all heck.

While I don't disagree, I feel a lot of so-called "grey" heroes tend to have more black-and-white thinking than many others

[j9ac9k]

It's not the same shield. The one that Steve used for the final battle in Endgame is already broken to pieces.
When Steve went back to returned the stones, he didn't have a shield. The shield that he gave Sam was forged in the timeline where Steve lived his live with Peggy.

Ha -- yes, this is actually what I was saying. The conversation was me asking, "Where are the broken pieces of Cap's shield?" and someone said the Wakandans had time to reforge it, but that seems odd to me, though I would be fine with that explanation if it were ever explcitly stated. (which it wasn't)

I feel like Marvel just wants us to think of the shield as iconically singular - that this is Steve's shield, and not want to remind us that there are two versions of the shield.

[Frontier]

Cold blooded murder? Pretty sure that makes you a villain. And I'll apply that to the far more sympathetic Karli just the same as Walker. Lines were crossed. Sympathetic or not, they are both villains now.

I feel like I should think Karli and the Flag-Smashers are more sympathetic, but for some reason I just feel more apathetic to them as the show goes on. I don't really know why.

And the Dora weren't trying to murder Walker, so kindly stop with that. If they wanted him dead he would be dead, they dominated that fight. He stood between them and Zemo, so they removed him from that path. Hell, they didn't even hurt him when they did it. At least physically. His emotional shattering speaks for itself, but is largely his own doing.

I think if Walker didn't dodge he might've gotten a spear through the gut/head, but I guess that's a calculated risk.

I think the show is doing some things well. The whole dynamic between Sam and Bucky, their story and Walkers story. But man Zemo was just sort of brought out to prance around, Sharon is barely developed, the flag smashers just sort of wander around and are mad about stuff. To me it just seems like a lot of this is chopped up. I don't know why I am suppose to care about the Flag Smashers, or Sharon for that matter. She is barely in the show but is having some impact. Zemo was interesting but he walks around, doesnt like super soldiers goes back to prison. I don't know how you can possibly solve these issues for me in the last episode.

I still find it kind of hilarious that Zemo put on his comic mask for, like, two minutes just so they could say they had him wear it in the MCU. There's not even any reason for him to put it on, he just grabs it and puts it on out of nowhere .

Reminds me of Deadshots mask in Suicide Squad.

[DrNewGod]

Are we assuming that's the shield he gives Sam, the same shield in "F&tWS?" At least that would explain where Old Steve got that shield he gives to Sam. It's be nice if it were actually the same shield, but that hasn't ever been confirmed, has it?

While this was strictly "I'd Guess..."?

Bucky seems to have memories from his entire time as The Winter Soldier.

If someone had worked something like Isaiah not actually being dead out? I would suspect that it would be the folks involved in the "The Winter Soldier..." project.

Bucky might have looked into trying to find him as part of his means of making amends.

It might also have been in the gazillion files of data that Black Widow dumped on the world during the climax of CA:TWS. Not, perhaps, everything but enough for Buck to put the pieces together. Going through such records might have been how he passed the time in Wakanda, and how he assembled his list of people to whom he owed restitution (how else would he have found the father of collateral victim?).

[green_garnish]

I wonder if the truth about Isaiah will be exposed

I wonder how the audience will react when Isaiah is exposed

[DrNewGod]

How weird is it that people are missing the point with John Walker. So three examples

1. Person 1 on twitter" I wasn't a fan before but when John Walker hit guy with Shield , I became a real fan"

2. Rob Liefield on twitter "John Walker Rules"

3. New York post " Marvel is turning an American hero into a villain"

So lets be clear there is nothing wrong for liking John Walker or feeling sympathy for the character BUT he is clear being written as wrong. This is not a redemption story yet this is a story of character going further down the darkside. IMO You shouldn't be rooting for John Walker as yet so it is weird seeing people back John Walker beyond understanding how he got to this point.

If Marvel puts him on the redemption path fine but he is clear going to get worse than better right now...

Many people are rooting for him, because the reaction to him is like he's a villain, irredeemable or evil, when he's literally done nothing to garner such a response beyond not being Steve.

Some people also think the DM trying to murder him for no reason was horrible.

Cold blooded murder? Pretty sure that makes you a villain. And I'll apply that to the far more sympathetic Karli just the same as Walker. Lines were crossed. Sympathetic or not, they are both villains now.

And the Dora weren't trying to murder Walker, so kindly stop with that. If they wanted him dead he would be dead, they dominated that fight. He stood between them and Zemo, so they removed him from that path. Hell, they didn't even hurt him when they did it. At least physically. His emotional shattering speaks for itself, but is largely his own doing.

Then too, there was that part where he was strangling Sam, who he'd defeated and disarmed already. Yeah, sorry, Walker's got a long stretch of Bucky's road to walk before he can be seen as anything better than (charitably) a dangerously loose cannon again.

I just hope Isaiah gets to see Sam as Cap and think that maybe it is possible for a black man to be Captain America.

Just my opinion, but I hope they don't bring Isaiah further than a skeptical "well, let's see what happens" kind of hope. The story has given him a rich, earned, and credible rational for his embittered cynicism. Convincing me that he simply laid that aside on seeing Sam behind the shield might not be impossible, but it would take a genuine feat of authorial skill to deliver in the one episode remaining.

[inisideguy]

I feel like I should think Karli and the Flag-Smashers are more sympathetic, but for some reason I just feel more apathetic to them as the show goes on. I don't really know why.

I think if Walker didn't dodge he might've gotten a spear through the gut/head, but I guess that's a calculated risk.

I still find it kind of hilarious that Zemo put on his comic mask for, like, two minutes just so they could say they had him wear it in the MCU. There's not even any reason for him to put it on, he just grabs it and puts it on out of nowhere .

Reminds me of Deadshots mask in Suicide Squad.

Yea he just puts on the mask and beats people up WTF was up with that? I think the A story of this show is very good, the Bucky, Sam, Walker, stuff. But the B story to me is a mess.

[AdamFTF]

As someone who's a not-so-young comic reader who doesn't always keep up with new events, this show makes me feel validated and then turns around and makes me feel old by showing me some bit of canon that slipped past me years ago.

Most of the way through this show I'm like "Alright! Flag Smasher and Power Broker and John Walker! Gruenwald Cap stuff! I even know Isaiah Bradley because of Young Avengers!" Then they bring in Julia Louis Dreyfus as the Contessa and I'm like "I remember her! She was an agent of SHIELD and Nick Fury's girlfriend!" And I go on Twitter and people are like "That's Madame Hydra" and I'm like "WHAAAAAT? I still thought she was a SHIELD agent."

And at this point I realize that almost all of the SHIELD agents I recognize in the MCU have been something other than SHIELD agents. Except Maria Hill, who I still think of as one of the "new ones". Gabe Jones and Dum Dum Dugan were in Captain America: The First Avenger as Howling Commandoes and are probably super old now. And Jimmy Woo's with the FBI. And none of those characters are still with SHIELD in the comics, probably.

[green_garnish]

Is Steve Rogers dead? Seems like he might have something to say in the midst of everything happening.

[DrNewGod]

As someone who's a not-so-young comic reader who doesn't always keep up with new events, this show makes me feel validated and then turns around and makes me feel old by showing me some bit of canon that slipped past me years ago.

Most of the way through this show I'm like "Alright! Flag Smasher and Power Broker and John Walker! Gruenwald Cap stuff! I even know Isaiah Bradley because of Young Avengers!" Then they bring in Julia Louis Dreyfus as the Contessa and I'm like "I remember her! She was an agent of SHIELD and Nick Fury's girlfriend!" And I go on Twitter and people are like "That's Madame Hydra" and I'm like "WHAAAAAT? I still thought she was a SHIELD agent."

And at this point I realize that almost all of the SHIELD agents I recognize in the MCU have been something other than SHIELD agents. Except Maria Hill, who I still think of as one of the "new ones". Gabe Jones and Dum Dum Dugan were in Captain America: The First Avenger as Howling Commandoes and are probably super old now. And Jimmy Woo's with the FBI. And none of those characters are still with SHIELD in the comics, probably.

Actually, Gabe and Dum Dum were created as Howling Commandos, and were retrofitted for SHIELD along with Fury. By the same token, Woo was created as an FBI agent in the old 1950s Yellow Claw comics, and retrofitted into SHIELD during Sternako's run on the title.

[green_garnish]

Just my opinion, but I hope they don't bring Isaiah further than a skeptical "well, let's see what happens" kind of hope. The story has given him a rich, earned, and credible rational for his embittered cynicism. .

It would be an enormously lost opportunity if they don't do more with him than that after this build up.

[CosmiComic]

I wonder how the audience will react when Isaiah is exposed

You mean the general real-world audience?

[green_garnish]

You mean the general real-world audience?

Yes that one. The audience watching the show.

[j9ac9k]

As someone who's a not-so-young comic reader who doesn't always keep up with new events, this show makes me feel validated and then turns around and makes me feel old by showing me some bit of canon that slipped past me years ago.

Most of the way through this show I'm like "Alright! Flag Smasher and Power Broker and John Walker! Gruenwald Cap stuff! I even know Isaiah Bradley because of Young Avengers!" Then they bring in Julia Louis Dreyfus as the Contessa and I'm like "I remember her! She was an agent of SHIELD and Nick Fury's girlfriend!" And I go on Twitter and people are like "That's Madame Hydra" and I'm like "WHAAAAAT? I still thought she was a SHIELD agent."

And at this point I realize that almost all of the SHIELD agents I recognize in the MCU have been something other than SHIELD agents. Except Maria Hill, who I still think of as one of the "new ones". Gabe Jones and Dum Dum Dugan were in Captain America: The First Avenger as Howling Commandoes and are probably super old now. And Jimmy Woo's with the FBI. And none of those characters are still with SHIELD in the comics, probably.

Yeah, it's been bugging me too that a bunch of people online immediately refer to her as "Madame Hydra" (and even mix her up with Viper) even though she was just "The Contessa/Val" for decades before the storyline where she took that mantle. And she only did it because she was a triple agent working for Leviathan (long before DC's organization) and retconned as having been a Russian agent the whole time.