Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[PCN24454]

While you see it as treating the secret identity as a joke, I see it as a much more realistic take on how hard it is to keep a secret like this. Peter is living in a small apartment, trying to lead a double life while keeping everyone in the dark. That is not going to work in any plausible way. And I'd rather see the supporting cast actually learn and move on than try to maintain some suspense about finding out for contrived drama. It may be a staple in the 616 version, but I prefer the Ultimate and MCU versions.

Realistically, he would be forbidden from being Spider-Man until he became an adult, so I never really liked that excuse.

[Rincewind]

Many of those deaths didn't serve the purpose I am talking about. Deaths of Heimdall, Zuri, Quill's mom, Warriors 3, Frigga, Vision, Odin, Loki, Peggy, Groot had nothing to do with creating motivation for another character.

For instance, Odin died because it was his time to die, he basically offed himself for that reason. In the movie, it was so Thor and Loki would have an adversary in Hela. Zuri died in order to show that Killmonger was an evil moustache-twirler.

But yah, good points on Yondu, Janet, Ancient One and Tony.

Odin's death is all about his children. It introduces the villain and sows the seeds for Thor and Loki's reconciliation.

Peggy's death is to let Sharon give her speech and to make Steve feel isolated and value Bucky more.

Quill's mom's dying is what drives Peter away from his family straight to the Ravagers. And the reveal from Ego turned Peter in a split second against his dad.

Heimdall and Loki dying in Infinity War does motivate Thor and establish Thanos. So the deaths can serve 2 functions.

Groot sacrificing himself with "We are Groot" drives home how they are now a team that pays off when Quill gets the Power Stone.

The death of Vision inspires Wanda's anger in Endgame and grief in WandaVision.

For Zuri, his death was the low point for T'Challa. We already knew Killmonger was a bad MF after he killed his own girlfriend.

Frigga's death was motivation for Loki to work with Thor against Maleketh.

And I'd argue that a character who is killed to show how dangerous the antagonist is similar to killing a character to motivate the hero. In both instances, the death is not about the individual character's story or development. Instead they are about moving the story for other characters (the lead or the villain).

[CosmiComic]

I think I read somewhere that Kevin Feige wasn't a fan of the
secret ID trope. He didn't want the writers to have to figure out which character knew what and how to reach who when he's trying to have everyone team up.

Comics rely on the heroes supporting cast being some combination of really stupid and willfully blind to make the
trope work.

So the movies clue them in first chance they get so they can be accomplices and not dupes.

I can't disagree with Feige there.

Yep, forgot about her. Also I added Nick Fury, for Winter Soldier. That kind of tips the balance, mostly its been PoC and/or women getting fridged.

Yeah. At least Fury came back

Quicksilver (white)
Heimdall (Black)
Warriors 3 (White, White, Asian)
Frigga (Woman)
Vision (purplish android)
Zuri (Black)
Yondu (Blue Alien)
Groot (Tree)
Peter Quill's Mother (Woman)
The Ancient One (Woman)
Tony Stark (whte) - arguable for the Spider-Man sequel
Odin (white)
Loki (white)
Steve Rogers (white) - old, retired arguably for FatWS
Peggy Carter (Woman)
Janet Van Dyne (Woman) - lost in quantum realm

Vision got to come back, while characters like Tony and Steve got about a decade of screen time. But Janet still hasn't done much of anything yet despite technically surviving, and Pietro dying was a waste IMO. The Warriors 3 were never really used much unfortunately

[CosmiComic]

I find the attempts to be more "realistic" with MCU Spider-Man and make things more plausible end up detracting more than they add to the character and take away from their mystique, but to each their own.

I think it's entirely implausible that a teenager could pull it off, at least a clever and creative teenager, but I guess it depends on the execution.

I think in certain cases it's fine, but we don't need to have a bunch of people knowing who Spider-Man is. And if someone does know, it's a major deal.

Seems like a valid personal choice to me, considering the circumstances, but that's just my take.

(They do get more directly targeted when they know in my experience).

I guess this is where the Arrowverse got the idea for their massive Superhero support staffs.

(Kind of makes me wonder what Feige's take on the DCU would be like).

I like a bit more of the realism. But I've also grown uninterested in the whole "Oh it's not really me" business. Yeah, he has the right not to tell them, but they're involved anyway. They should be aware of what they're connected to. I can see the danger increased if they know, but they also are aware there's danger in the first place

[Scott Taylor]

Odin's death is all about his children. It introduces the villain and sows the seeds for Thor and Loki's reconciliation.

Peggy's death is to let Sharon give her speech and to make Steve feel isolated and value Bucky more.

Quill's mom's dying is what drives Peter away from his family straight to the Ravagers. And the reveal from Ego turned Peter in a split second against his dad.

Heimdall and Loki dying in Infinity War does motivate Thor and establish Thanos. So the deaths can serve 2 functions.

Groot sacrificing himself with "We are Groot" drives home how they are now a team that pays off when Quill gets the Power Stone.

The death of Vision inspires Wanda's anger in Endgame and grief in WandaVision.

For Zuri, his death was the low point for T'Challa. We already knew Killmonger was a bad MF after he killed his own girlfriend.

Frigga's death was motivation for Loki to work with Thor against Maleketh.

And I'd argue that a character who is killed to show how dangerous the antagonist is similar to killing a character to motivate the hero. In both instances, the death is not about the individual character's story or development. Instead they are about moving the story for other characters (the lead or the villain).

-So you agree with me about Odin.

-Sharon's speech was the more important thing then.

-Quill was kidnapped by the ravagers, he wasn't running away.

-Really it was all the Asgardians losing their home and then dying that was the key there. So that one is complicated.

-Groot - I actually forgot about that, but I think he's a black tree so add one more point for racism!

-Vision is a PoC, obviously.

-I'd say T'Challa's death was the low point for him.

Generally I just don't think these rise to the level of what I am talking about. But the MCU does use death as motivation quite a bit, wow. But this is really about a main character and supporting character thing. In most cases, main characters have been white males and supporting characters have run the gamut of race and sex. But usually most supporting characters are white males. So the question is are there equal amounts of whites and minorities more likely to die for these reasons? If so then that is disporportionately targeting the minorities, because there are fewer of them involved in the first place.

[CosmiComic]

Well, there are far fewer PoC characters in the MCU, so killing them off isn't necessarily a plus for representation

[Vic Vega]

Death being a character motivator in the Super Hero genre is nothing new.

As traditionally brighter a place the DCU is over the MCU only Wonder Woman comes to mind as the only major DC character that ISN'T motivated by the death of a parent or mentor. If you want to count Shazam as a DC character, then that's two.

They even added in a dead parent to the Barry Allen Flash's backstory ( likely to make his motivation stronger than the rest of the Flashes) that wasn't there back in the day!

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

[Rincewind]

-So you agree with me about Odin.

I agree that Odin's death was less about Odin and more about how it affected other characters.

-Sharon's speech was the more important thing then.

While her death was more about motivating Steve, it was of old age after a long life of service. Considering she got her own TV show, I would say this probably doesn't qualify.

-Quill was kidnapped by the ravagers, he wasn't running away.

Quill ran from her deathbed straight to the Ravagers. He became a Ravager and never returned to Earth as an adult because he couldn't handle her death. The reveal by Ego was all about turning Peter against him. Meredith Quill never really existed as a character. She was only used to motivate Peter.

-Really it was all the Asgardians losing their home and then dying that was the key there. So that one is complicated.

"You're going to die for that!" when Heimdall is killed. "I told you, you'd die for that." When Thor didn't go for the head. I'd say Thor was very motivated by Heimdall's death.

-Groot - I actually forgot about that, but I think he's a black tree so add one more point for racism!

-Vision is a PoC, obviously.

I'll give you Groot. But is any character played by Paul Bettany really a PoC? When he changes his appearance to human, he's so white, he's English.

-I'd say T'Challa's death was the low point for him.

Disillusionment of father, murder of uncle, losing his mantle and technically dying. It was a pretty crappy day for T'Challa.

Generally I just don't think these rise to the level of what I am talking about. But the MCU does use death as motivation quite a bit, wow. But this is really about a main character and supporting character thing. In most cases, main characters have been white males and supporting characters have run the gamut of race and sex. But usually most supporting characters are white males. So the question is are there equal amounts of whites and minorities more likely to die for these reasons? If so then that is disporportionately targeting the minorities, because there are fewer of them involved in the first place.

For character's like Uncle Ben, or Batman's parents, they only exist as a motivation for the hero. Characters like Erskine or Yinsen definitely fall into that category. But Rhodey getting hurt, while motivating Tony, falls short of that. Supporting characters can be developed, have their own plot, personality, motivation, etc, they are still there to support the leads. And when a supporting character dies, it's usually to move the plot along, establish the villain, show how dangerous the situation is, or to motivate the hero. They are fulfilling their character function in the story.

But you do bring up a good point in that most of the leads are white while most PoC are supporting. I think that is changing with Phase 4.

Also Mar-Vell (woman) should qualify for the list.

[BeastieRunner]

Death being a character motivator in the Super Hero genre is nothing new.

As traditionally brighter a place the DCU is over the MCU only Wonder Woman comes to mind as the only major DC character that ISN'T motivated by the death of a parent or mentor. If you want to count Shazam as a DC character, then that's two.

They even added in a dead parent to the Barry Allen Flash's backstory ( likely to make his motivation stronger than the rest of the Flashes) that wasn't there back in the day!

"Don't be a Disney character's parent" is now "Don't be a Disney or superhero character's parent."

Heh.

[Rincewind]

"Don't be a Disney character's parent" is now "Don't be a Disney or superhero character's parent."

Heh.

True. I think we can add Howard Stark (white) and Maria Stark (woman) to the list. Maria's death was pivotal to the ending of Civil War. And Tony had daddy issues from Iron Man 2 through Endgame.

[Vic Vega]

True. I think we can add Howard Stark (white) and Maria Stark (woman) to the list. Maria's death was pivotal to the ending of Civil War. And Tony had daddy issues from Iron Man 2 through Endgame.

I'd leave them out and add Ho Yinsen (Tony Stark's Cave/Cellmate in Iron Man 1) instead.

Yinsen is the classic example of that trope. He literally takes a bullet for Stark (more like about a dozen of them) He's also a POC.

Yinsen's self sacrifice is what motivates a guilt ridden Stark to redeem his past by fighting the terrorists that he unknowingly armed as Iron Man.

Learning the truth about his parents death prevents Stark from reconciling with Steve Rogers. Yinsen's death is what created Iron Man.

[Scott Taylor]

"Don't be a Disney character's parent" is now "Don't be a Disney or superhero character's parent."

Heh.

Kind of ironic that this is true and, at the same time, Marvel seems to refuse to make Peter's secret identity a big deal or tie it in with responsibility, etc. Comics Peter OBVIOUSLY HAS READ COMICS and knows the score.

[PCN24454]

"Don't be a Disney character's parent" is now "Don't be a Disney or superhero character's parent."

Heh.

Wasn't it always like that even in ancient times?

[silvercover]

you know, it feels like this show works better if you just watch it as a whole movie, or at least it feels that way for the flag smashers. I think its easy for people to forget how ep 2 establishes that they have been going around stealing goods and distributing it to other people which is why a lot of people shelter them, before they actively did stuff like setting fires to kill people. feels to me a lot of people think they were terrorists right off the bat and get confused why there were citizens on their side in the first place.

I also think the flag smashers are actually not that lacking as some people have said, rather the problem comes from how the thing they are fighting against, the GRC, is not properly established and vague until we're in the 2nd to last ep. your only hint that maybe this government organization is not all that good is the fact that Walker comes out of a car with their logo on it, which is barely anything to go by and at this point Walker doesn't really look that bad yet. I think it would help a lot if they already dropped some info on the GRC by the 1st or 2nd ep, maybe show a bit on how they aren't that compassionate or the kind of corruption going on behind the scenes for these guys. probably that place the flag smashers blew up was part of the GRC but you don't really know that, they could have shown a scene where the guards/people there were taking their time in giving out the supplies or maybe even leisurely taking from it.