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  1. #1426
    Incredible Member green_garnish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I can see that. But Tony still seemed willing to talk about it. Steve acted self-righteous the whole time.
    Self righteousness when you're right is not bad, just annoying to those who don't want to agree with you.

    Remember that he was inspired by Sharon, who quoted Peggy, that when the world asks you to move, and you know you're right, it's your responsibility to stand like an oak and say no, you move.

    The world was wrong, Steve was right, and Peggy ultimately gave him the strength to stand up for what's right.

  2. #1427
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Nope. Going through Ross' bitch-list:
    • Marvel's The Avengers: The SSR and later a Hydra-infested SHIELD started tampering with the Tesseract back in 1945, and they were the ones that lost it to Loki, enabling him to open Thanos' can of whupass on NYC.
    • Captain America: The Winter Soldier: It was bringing down Hydra-infested SHIELD's death-carriers that required making the mess.
    • Captain America: Civil War: The damage to the Wakandan Embassy in Lagos was caused by Hydra-mole/SHIELD agent Crossbones' suicide bomb; it was going to kill a lot of people, the embassy just happened to be where Scarlet Witch tossed him.


    Not mentioned by Ross, Avengers: Age of Ultron: The Johannesburg Incident was caused by "technically, I'm a thug for SHIELD" Hydra Master Von Strucker's pet augments poking around in the Hulk's skull.
    If you want to include it, it was Ross himself that created the Abomination in The Incredible Hulk, and the resulting rampage in Harlem (although we can skip that one as how canonical it is in the MCU is iffy).



    The point being, Ross was trying to lay all this trash on The Avengers' doorstep, when it was people like him that actually set the bulk of it in motion.
    How did "people like Ross" cause Hydra, the Chitauri invasion or Ultron?

    And what did the Avengers do after Wanda set Hulk upon Johannesburg? They let her join their team and took her on crime-fighting missions around the world without even discussing if she should play for her crimes while Hulk had to flee Earth because of what she made him do. This is exactly the type of behavior that should make people view them as untrustworthy. Or it would if the MCU didn't pretend it never happened.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-22-2021 at 02:52 PM.

  3. #1428
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Self righteousness when you're right is not bad, just annoying to those who don't want to agree with you.

    Remember that he was inspired by Sharon, who quoted Peggy, that when the world asks you to move, and you know you're right, it's your responsibility to stand like an oak and say no, you move.

    The world was wrong, Steve was right, and Peggy ultimately gave him the strength to stand up for what's right.
    I don't think the world was wrong tbh, especially when the whole mission Steve broke the Avengers up over was a bust

  4. #1429
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Self righteousness when you're right is not bad, just annoying to those who don't want to agree with you.

    Remember that he was inspired by Sharon, who quoted Peggy, that when the world asks you to move, and you know you're right, it's your responsibility to stand like an oak and say no, you move.

    The world was wrong, Steve was right, and Peggy ultimately gave him the strength to stand up for what's right.
    Steve also conveniently ignored the part about compromising.

  5. #1430
    Incredible Member green_garnish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think the world was wrong tbh, especially when the whole mission Steve broke the Avengers up over was a bust
    Steve represented the best of the Avengers. Others who did not have the strength to maintain that aspiration broke up the Avengers.

    Wanda was perfectly correct when she implied Stark could not distinguish between saving the world and destroying it.

  6. #1431
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Steve represented the best of the Avengers. Others who did not have the strength to maintain that aspiration broke up the Avengers.

    Wanda was perfectly correct when she implied Stark could not distinguish between saving the world and destroying it.
    Pretty rich coming from a woman who joined a Nazi terrorist organization to get revenge on a guy who was at least six degrees separated from her parents' death.

  7. #1432
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Self righteousness when you're right is not bad, just annoying to those who don't want to agree with you.

    Remember that he was inspired by Sharon, who quoted Peggy, that when the world asks you to move, and you know you're right, it's your responsibility to stand like an oak and say no, you move.

    The world was wrong, Steve was right, and Peggy ultimately gave him the strength to stand up for what's right.
    Not necessarily, as accountability is important. When the Young Avengers eventually becomes a thing, how do you hold children accountable. In fact, Spider-Man being a minor really causes issues now that his ID is public.

    Steve is more right, because the Accords are flawed. However, they should answer to someone when they mess up and/or cause avoidable danger.

    This gives precedent to any super group doing what they want, based on their convictions. The Flag Smashers are being supported by many people and do have a great point, as an example. If they didn't kill people anyways.

    It's an interesting topic that's too nuanced to ever get told well with mainstream characters that are supposed to keep going forever. That's why I'm glad more independent stuff is getting adapted.

  8. #1433
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Steve represented the best of the Avengers. Others who did not have the strength to maintain that aspiration broke up the Avengers.

    Wanda was perfectly correct when she implied Stark could not distinguish between saving the world and destroying it.
    To be fair, neither can she. That, and Tony ultimately sacrificed more than she ever would.

  9. #1434
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Steve represented the best of the Avengers. Others who did not have the strength to maintain that aspiration broke up the Avengers.

    Wanda was perfectly correct when she implied Stark could not distinguish between saving the world and destroying it.
    I don't see how that refutes my point

  10. #1435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Pretty rich coming from a woman who joined a Nazi terrorist organization to get revenge on a guy who was at least six degrees separated from her parents' death.
    His company built the weapons, he wasn't that far removed. Wanda was holding Stark to a standard he himself thought fair when he became Iron Man

  11. #1436
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
    while not MCU, Maguire's Spider-man also was gonna kill the guy he thought killed his uncle even after the guy was pleading for mercy, he only got distracted when he realized it was the robber he let get away earlier and instead it turned into an accidental death.
    Don't forget about Storm in the first X-Men movie. You can't tell me hitting Toad with that much lightning didn't kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    If there was one single thing that genuinely annoyed me about MCU Civil War, it was The Avengers sitting silent while Ross guilted them over the consequences of their actions. I really wanted somebody to say "Hey Hairpiece! Ultron? That's on us. But every last one of those started with you lot letting the Hydra moles in your super-secret agency run amok!"

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Nope. Going through Ross' bitch-list:
    • Marvel's The Avengers: The SSR and later a Hydra-infested SHIELD started tampering with the Tesseract back in 1945, and they were the ones that lost it to Loki, enabling him to open Thanos' can of whupass on NYC.
    • Captain America: The Winter Soldier: It was bringing down Hydra-infested SHIELD's death-carriers that required making the mess.
    • Captain America: Civil War: The damage to the Wakandan Embassy in Lagos was caused by Hydra-mole/SHIELD agent Crossbones' suicide bomb; it was going to kill a lot of people, the embassy just happened to be where Scarlet Witch tossed him.


    Not mentioned by Ross, Avengers: Age of Ultron: The Johannesburg Incident was caused by "technically, I'm a thug for SHIELD" Hydra Master Von Strucker's pet augments poking around in the Hulk's skull.
    If you want to include it, it was Ross himself that created the Abomination in The Incredible Hulk, and the resulting rampage in Harlem (although we can skip that one as how canonical it is in the MCU is iffy).

    The point being, Ross was trying to lay all this trash on The Avengers' doorstep, when it was people like him that actually set the bulk of it in motion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How did "people like Ross" cause Hydra, the Chitauri invasion or Ultron?

    And what did the Avengers do after Wanda set Hulk upon Johannesburg? They let her join their team and took her on crime-fighting missions around the world without even discussing if she should play for her crimes while Hulk had to flee Earth because of what she made him do. This is exactly the type of behavior that should make people view them as untrustworthy. Or it would if the MCU didn't pretend it never happened.
    Thank you. I think that every single time I watch Civil War. The only incident directly caused by the Avengers was Sokovia. The rest were the Avengers reacting to outside threats.

    For the record, I don't think Wanda tossed the exploding Crossbones at the Wakandan embassy. I think she was trying to get him clear of the crowd AND the building, but she didn't have enough control of her powers she she lost containment. I maintain Wanda saved a lot more lives than were lost by her actions.

    People like Ross were the ones experimenting with the Tesseract, which drew the attention of Loki and Thanos. If they had left it alone, it couldn't have been used to open a portal for an invasion force to fly through. Ultron, though, is all on Tony, who admittedly was being influenced by the vision Wanda gave him.

    As for Wanda, I do think the Avengers gave her a pass. Yes, she worked with Ultron and yes, she set the Hulk loose; but at the same time, she was a traumatized young woman who had been experimented on by Hydra, who blamed Stark for the death of her parents, and who, when the time came, admitted she made a mistake and worked with the Avengers to stop Ultron. I think that maybe working for the Avengers was basically parole for her.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    But Steve barely even bothered to discuss it. He was stubborn and obstinate about the whole business despite being all about saving everyone in the previous movie. He didn't even entertain the idea of some kind of compromise. Frankly, I found him somewhat unlikeable in CW, which is rare for me.

    And while Ross is absolutely questionable at best, the rest of the world also wanted this. But somehow that's dangerous.

    It's odd because I generally agree the bad guys did most of the damage, so blaming the Avengers seems a bit unfair. However, that doesn't mean they can't have someone overseeing them at some time. But God forbid that happen
    Ross started off that movie as mostly reasonable, and ended it as a full-on villain. To the point that he didn't even care about who was actually behind the UN bombing, and him ignoring the evidence Tony brought him. At that moment he wanted Cap and Bucky brought in dead or alive, and I think he would have preferred dead.

  12. #1437
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    I agree that's what Ross became. My problem is with Marvel villainizing the opposite to make Steve's position appear irrefutable

  13. #1438
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I agree that's what Ross became. My problem is with Marvel villainizing the opposite to make Steve's position appear irrefutable
    Well, Steve had his own problems in that movie beyond proving he had a point about not trusting the Accords or Ross.

  14. #1439
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, Steve had his own problems in that movie beyond proving he had a point about not trusting the Accords or Ross.
    Yeah, but villainizing Ross makes it clear which side is right. Now it's just us debating Steve's position vs reasonable accountability that doesn't exist in the MCU.

    I mean think about it. Sam and Bucky are just going around the world doing whatever they want, with no oversight at all. It's kind of ridiculous.

    It needs to be someone reasonable and empathetic to a degree, in charge of the accountability position. Like maybe Rhodes, or a less extreme version of Nighthawk or even Banner.

    Think it'd be great if the Thunderbolts were reasonable. However, as seen with Karli, that's too hard for Disney/Marvel.

  15. #1440
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Yeah, but villainizing Ross makes it clear which side is right. Now it's just us debating Steve's position vs reasonable accountability that doesn't exist in the MCU.

    I mean think about it. Sam and Bucky are just going around the world doing whatever they want, with no oversight at all. It's kind of ridiculous.

    It needs to be someone reasonable and empathetic to a degree, in charge of the accountability position. Like maybe Rhodes, or a less extreme version of Nighthawk or even Banner.

    Think it'd be great if the Thunderbolts were reasonable. However, as seen with Karli, that's too hard for Disney/Marvel.
    Well, right in some respects, if not absolutely.

    I mean, Sam was working for the government but as usual heroes eventually go rogue and just do their own thing which is why accountability in Superhero stories is so difficult to implement. In BvS Superman goes to a congressional hearing but that gets blown up and eventually gets dropped. Who does Batman answer to? Captain Marvel? Superheroes are just kind of stuck as these autonomous entities who actively do their own thing without needing to answer to anyone...until the story forces them to, but never permanently.

    Look at what Wanda did and basically got away with aside from a personal cost to herself. And there's really no one left to hold her accountable beyond herself and she might not even feel she needs to be held accountable for what she did in Westview. And either Sam doesn't know about it or just doesn't have the time to try and find Wanda and deal with her.

    I don't see the Thunderbolts being reasonable because it's always been a team of dubious morality even when they're ostensibly a Superhero team. It's usually a collection of Supervillains either posing as heroes or forced into doing hero work.

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