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  1. #1441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, Steve had his own problems in that movie beyond proving he had a point about not trusting the Accords or Ross.
    I think Steve's connection to Bucky affected his judgement tbh

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, right in some respects, if not absolutely.

    I mean, Sam was working for the government but as usual heroes eventually go rogue and just do their own thing which is why accountability in Superhero stories is so difficult to implement. In BvS Superman goes to a congressional hearing but that gets blown up and eventually gets dropped. Who does Batman answer to? Captain Marvel? Superheroes are just kind of stuck as these autonomous entities who actively do their own thing without needing to answer to anyone...until the story forces them to, but never permanently.

    Look at what Wanda did and basically got away with aside from a personal cost to herself. And there's really no one left to hold her accountable beyond herself and she might not even feel she needs to be held accountable for what she did in Westview. And either Sam doesn't know about it or just doesn't have the time to try and find Wanda and deal with her.

    I don't see the Thunderbolts being reasonable because it's always been a team of dubious morality even when they're ostensibly a Superhero team. It's usually a collection of Supervillains either posing as heroes or forced into doing hero work.
    That's my point. The heroes do what they want and anyone trying to hold them accountable is either malevolent, or dies.

    Yet Sam goes back to being a military operative in FaWS anyway

  2. #1442
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think Steve's connection to Bucky affected his judgement tbh
    I don't think there's any argument there, especially where Tony is concerned.

  3. #1443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think there's any argument there, especially where Tony is concerned.
    When the government was trying to kill Bucky, I was on Steve's side. But the Accords business got mixed up in all that.

  4. #1444
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    There is very much general oversight, Sam is working as an independent contractor with the government. Bucky not so much. The first mission on F&WS was given by the military where he was told to be discrete. Basically, my guess that Sam functional a kinda James Bond right now, the government will feed him a mission that they need him to complete and use his semi-independent status to allow him to go and do whatever he wants if he is successful they will claim him, and if he is not they will deny that he works for them.

    Bureaucracy and rules screw up the ability to help, Them functioning "heroes" and not official government agents means they can step into countries help where the US can't help out. That was one reason Cap wasn't super high on Sokovia accords his thing was "what if they don't allow you to help". Anyways every scene with Torres was him basically acting as a middle man between Falcon and the government. They have to answer to people in the government, it is government just using plausible deniability with them. This makes for interesting superhero story rather than "hey you can't go to madipoor" "Hey you can't work with Zemo" "You aren't allowed to operate in that country".

  5. #1445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    There is very much general oversight, Sam is working as an independent contractor with the government. Bucky not so much. The first mission on F&WS was given by the military where he was told to be discrete. Basically, my guess that Sam functional a kinda James Bond right now, the government will feed him a mission that they need him to complete and use his semi-independent status to allow him to go and do whatever he wants if he is successful they will claim him, and if he is not they will deny that he works for them.

    Bureaucracy and rules screw up the ability to help, Them functioning "heroes" and not official government agents means they can step into countries help where the US can't help out. That was one reason Cap wasn't super high on Sokovia accords his thing was "what if they don't allow you to help". Anyways every scene with Torres was him basically acting as a middle man between Falcon and the government. They have to answer to people in the government, it is government just using plausible deniability with them. This makes for interesting superhero story rather than "hey you can't go to madipoor" "Hey you can't work with Zemo" "You aren't allowed to operate in that country".
    I guess I don't see bureaucracy as inherently problematic. Sometimes it prevents people doing the wrong thing. I've never been too keen on the whole "rules aren't for heroes" business because it makes them seem like they're above the law. If they were actually working for the UN, I'd probably be more ok with it

    As per your point, I understand plausible deniability. But we've all seen the effects of using plausible deniability in the real world

  6. #1446
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I guess I don't see bureaucracy as inherently problematic.
    It isn't but rules create issues If the US government wants to help out some people in North Korea they can't but a nonofficial group of doctors can go right in. Rules create justice but they also help people who know how to abuse the rules. For example, there is no reason Lex Luthor should get the benefit of the doubt but rules say Lex Luthor can go free after serving some bs amount of time and probably do something wrong again. Anyways you don't see bureaucracy as inherently problematic you had a long discussion on China in another thread, They are clear things wrong in China and people know they are things wrong in China. Why doesn't anyone do something?

    To keep this on track they are talks about Season 2 of the show and Marvel has submitted this show for an Emmy

  7. #1447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    It isn't but rules create issues If the US government wants to help out some people in North Korea they can't but a nonofficial group of doctors can go right in. Rules create justice but they also help people who know how to abuse the rules. For example, there is no reason Lex Luthor should get the benefit of the doubt but rules say Lex Luthor can go free after serving some bs amount of time and probably do something wrong again. Anyways you don't see bureaucracy as inherently problematic you had a long discussion on China in another thread, They are clear things wrong in China and people know they are things wrong in China. Why doesn't anyone do something?

    To keep this on track they are talks about Season 2 of the show and Marvel has submitted this show for an Emmy
    Well, I agree bureaucracy can be problematic and often is. But it can also restrain other elements of the government from acting with impunity and disrespecting peoples' rights. I don't know how we here can necessarily stop China, for example, unless it's all out war, which almost nobody wants.

    Lex goes free because comic books never evolve. That's not a fault of the Justice system

    Back on topic, Idk what to think about the Emmys. Tbh I don't really follow rhe awards shows. Which Emmy was it submitted for?

  8. #1448
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Well, I agree bureaucracy can be problematic and often is. But it can also restrain other elements of the government from acting with impunity and disrespecting peoples' rights. I don't know how we here can necessarily stop China, for example, unless it's all out war, which almost nobody wants.

    Lex goes free because comic books never evolve. That's not a fault of the Justice system

    Back on topic, Idk what to think about the Emmys. Tbh I don't really follow rhe awards shows. Which Emmy was it submitted for?
    Oversight doesn't happen because comic books never evolve, That's not the fault of the justice system either, Wanda and Tony didn't get punished because they want to do shows and movies with them. You aren't going to have a fun show/movie with Tony in Jail.

    They are submitting it for best drama(wandavision got submitted for best limited series), I think Wyatt Russell will probably get submitted for award as well

  9. #1449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Oversight doesn't happen because comic books never evolve, That's not the fault of the justice system either, Wanda and Tony didn't get punished because they want to do shows and movies with them. You aren't going to have a fun show/movie with Tony in Jail.

    They are submitting it for best drama(wandavision got submitted for best limited series), I think Wyatt Russell will probably get submitted for award as well
    I was more talking about how villains escape punishment

    Anyways, I didn't know Russell was getting submitted

  10. #1450
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I was more talking about how villains escape punishment

    Anyways, I didn't know Russell was getting submitted
    Russell didn't get submitted that was just my guess, Carl Lumby and him have acted their butts off in this show.

  11. #1451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Russell didn't get submitted that was just my guess, Carl Lumby and him have acted their butts off in this show.
    Oh ok. Honestly it seems weird to me they're getting submitted. I never would've guessed a few years ago. Idk if they'll win though

  12. #1452
    Incredible Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    I am so looking forward to watching Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I shall reserve my judgement until after I finish watching it.

  13. #1453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Russell didn't get submitted that was just my guess, Carl Lumby and him have acted their butts off in this show.
    Honestly, only Wyatt's character has had enough meat to really work with to get an Emmy, if they were to get it for anything. Stan, unfortunately, has been asked to mostly stand around and brood, while the Karli actress just seems miscast as well her character getting shafted.

  14. #1454
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Honestly, only Wyatt's character has had enough meat to really work with to get an Emmy, if they were to get it for anything. Stan, unfortunately, has been asked to mostly stand around and brood, while the Karli actress just seems miscast as well her character getting shafted.
    I heard it was due to COVID forcing reshoots to change the plot. Idk if that's true

  15. #1455
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    His company built the weapons, he wasn't that far removed. Wanda was holding Stark to a standard he himself thought fair when he became Iron Man
    Tony's company built the weapons; someone else bought them and used them on the Maximoffs. But Wanda focused on Tony alone.

    This is like me getting hit by a drunk driver and suing the car manufacturer while completely forgetting the drunk driver. And as I mentioned, she joined Hydra.

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