Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[Frontier]

Yeah, and a musket is basic compared to weapons we have now. But once you master one science, others can build on it. There is a direct line between Cap and Hulk, after all.

Once again, this makes me wonder what does the world know about Ultron's creation? Has anyone after Age of Ultron outright said that Ultron was created by Stark/The Avengers?

I know the Avengers were held culpable for what happened in Sokovia, which hit Tony pretty hard, but not so much that the evil killer robot that caused all that destruction was also their fault too. Because then you kind of assume criminal charges and legal battles would come after them.

It's not like they told anyone that Wanda was behind Hulk's rampage either.

But then again, they would have to explain where Ultron came from because I don't think people would be satisfied with a random killer robot showing up with no explanation.

[CosmiComic]

Yeah, and a musket is basic compared to weapons we have now. But once you master one science, others can build on it. There is a direct line between Cap and Hulk, after all.

Once again, this makes me wonder what does the world know about Ultron's creation? Has anyone after Age of Ultron outright said that Ultron was created by Stark/The Avengers?

Haha, true, I meant more that super soldiers aren't nearly as powerful as most Avengers. I should've made that cleae

[Frontier]

I think it's two fold. One, because Steve, and through him super soldiers, kind of kick started the metahuman or enhanced revolution. No Avengers without Steve might be a little broad, particularly in the MCU, but that's more or less what I mean.

Definitely we've seen various attempts to replicate the Super Soldier Serum. Now that they have the rights they can dive deep into the murky history of the Weapon ____ program.

Although the age of heroes didn't really begin until Iron Man showed up.

Second, because super soldiers can be replicated. Iron Man's armor is impressive, but Stark is pretty much the only guy in the world who can build one. Thor was born the way he was, but the Asgardians mostly keep to themselves. Wanda is the product of mad science (or at least was, prior to WandaVision) based on the scepter, and through it the Mind Stone, a one of a kind item in the universe.. Which has itself since been taken out of play.

At least until we get to Armor Wars.

But super soldiers? Anybody with the serum can make more. It's powers for the masses. Zemo hates all super-humans, and he'd almost certainly take a shot at somebody like Stark if he was still alive, or maybe even Banner if he thought he could make it count. I absolutely believe he'd murder Wanda in a heartbeat, particularly after Westview. Spider-Man? Yeah, probably hates him too. Doctor Strange is an interesting edge case, since theoretically anybody can learn magic, and knowledge doesn't necessarily make him superhuman. But super soldiers are the ones who can be mass produced. It makes a certain amount of sense that he would put his energies into stopping that avenue, above others.

This makes me wonder if the general public even know about Dr. Strange since, apparently, everyone and their mother has seen the Endgame fight and he was there. And Stephen Strange is probably recognizable enough from his time as a doctor.

I wonder if the Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil end up being less Supervillains versus Superheroes and more, in Zemo's mind, being a deterrent or fighting fire against fire against the threat of Superheroes.

[CosmiComic]

I'm hoping the Thunderbolts are villains masquerading as heroes

[silvercover]

sam's convo last ep made me consider an ending where the shield is destroyed and this ep just strengthened my belief in it. I think walker has just stained its legacy forever now, maybe the shield will still be around for sam/bucky/walker to be using but there won't be a captain america by the end of this series.

[CosmiComic]

sam's convo last ep made me consider an ending where the shield is destroyed and this ep just strengthened my belief in it. I think walker has just stained its legacy forever now, maybe the shield will still be around for sam/bucky/walker to be using but there won't be a captain america by the end of this series.

I think that's plausible. Honestly I'd like if Sam stayed as Falcon. It's his own unique identity

[Dzetoun]

But super soldiers? Anybody with the serum can make more. It's powers for the masses. Zemo hates all super-humans, and he'd almost certainly take a shot at somebody like Stark if he was still alive, or maybe even Banner if he thought he could make it count. I absolutely believe he'd murder Wanda in a heartbeat, particularly after Westview. Spider-Man? Yeah, probably hates him too. Doctor Strange is an interesting edge case, since theoretically anybody can learn magic, and knowledge doesn't necessarily make him superhuman. But super soldiers are the ones who can be mass produced. It makes a certain amount of sense that he would put his energies into stopping that avenue, above others.

I think it was clear in Civil War that Zemo hated all the Avengers. He concentrated on Cap and Tony because they were the weak points considering his knowledge about Bucky and the death of Tony's parents.

As for why he's concentrating on the super soldiers now, well it's the problem in front of him. He was brought out of prison and told about a plot to create more super soldiers. If it was a plot to make more Hulks or recreate Tony's armor or spread Asgardian rule on the Earth I am sure he would be just as dedicated to stopping it. But it isn't, it's a plot to recreate the serum and mass produce people like Bucky and Isaiah. It makes sense, particularly for someone as intelligent and focused as Zemo, that he keep his eye on the ball rather than wasting his energy on fights that aren't immediately raging around him.

[ZeroBG82]

sam's convo last ep made me consider an ending where the shield is destroyed and this ep just strengthened my belief in it. I think walker has just stained its legacy forever now, maybe the shield will still be around for sam/bucky/walker to be using but there won't be a captain america by the end of this series.

But contrast that with the discussion between Karli and the other guy when they retrieved the serum vials. To paraphrase, the world needs a Captain America that looks like them. The Flag Smasher was trying to praise Karli, putting her in that role. But he wasn't wrong. Walker is the wrong choice on so many levels even before this episode. Sam, on the other hand, gets it.

I think, if anything, this only made it more likely that Sam winds up Captain America at the end of this. Precisely because the shield and the suit aren't what make Captain America, the man IN the suit does.

But I think him wearing the red, white and blue and carrying the shield but still being called Falcon is a distinct possibility. Not trying to replace Steve, but being his legacy. I'm coming around a bit on @Mik's attitude on that one. That Sam being his own man might be the best kind of legacy for Steve.

[CosmiComic]

But contrast that with the discussion between Karli and the other guy when they retrieved the serum vials. To paraphrase, the world needs a Captain America that looks like them. The Flag Smasher was trying to praise Karli, putting her in that role. But he wasn't wrong. Walker is the wrong choice on so many levels even before this episode. Sam, on the other hand, gets it.

I think, if anything, this only made it more likely that Sam winds up Captain America at the end of this. Precisely because the shield and the suit aren't what make Captain America, the man IN the suit does.

But I think him wearing the red, white and blue and carrying the shield but still being called Falcon is a distinct possibility. Not trying to replace Steve, but being his legacy. I'm coming around a bit on @Mik's attitude on that one. That Sam being his own man might be the best kind of legacy for Steve.

Cool. I'd be ok with him being Cap too, or having the shield, but I also feel Falcon is a good enough name on its own. I think he's the first Black superhero without Black in his hero name

[Vic Vega]

I think it's two fold. One, because Steve, and through him super soldiers, kind of kick started the metahuman or enhanced revolution. No Avengers without Steve might be a little broad, particularly in the MCU, but that's more or less what I mean.

Second, because super soldiers can be replicated. Iron Man's armor is impressive, but Stark is pretty much the only guy in the world who can build one. Thor was born the way he was, but the Asgardians mostly keep to themselves. Wanda is the product of mad science (or at least was, prior to WandaVision) based on the scepter, and through it the Mind Stone, a one of a kind item in the universe.. Which has itself since been taken out of play.

But super soldiers? Anybody with the serum can make more. It's powers for the masses. Zemo hates all super-humans, and he'd almost certainly take a shot at somebody like Stark if he was still alive, or maybe even Banner if he thought he could make it count. I absolutely believe he'd murder Wanda in a heartbeat, particularly after Westview.

His take on Wanda would be interesting as it was Sokovia's destruction that radicalized her and Pietro. He probably hates her far more for joining the Avengers and Stark than for being a superhuman.

What's ironic about Zemo's worldview is that both he and Stark are normals and look how much damage they caused.

[Frontier]

His take on Wanda would be interesting as it was Sokovia's destruction that radicalized her and Pietro. He probably hates her far more for joining the Avengers and Stark than for being a superhuman.

What's ironic about Zemo's worldview is that both he and Stark are normals and look how much damage they caused.

And Westview is also not the best case for the impact Superheroes have on the populace.

[godisawesome]

His take on Wanda would be interesting as it was Sokovia's destruction that radicalized her and Pietro. He probably hates her far more for joining the Avengers and Stark than for being a superhuman.

What's ironic about Zemo's worldview is that both he and Stark are normals and look how much damage they caused.

Zemo has also expressed disgust for Hydra... who’s experimentation Wanda volunteered for.

Plus, I think there’s a slight subtext that the Maximoffs and Zemos are from vastly different stratas and alignments within war-torn Sokovia.

The Maximoffs seemed to have been a working class family trying to keep their heads down, but located in the hot zone for someone who could afford Stark-built artillery, with Wanda and Pietro then becoming radicalized into Hydra. Meanwhile, Zemo comes from a noble family that apparently still maintained estates and capital outside the country, and he lead a kill squad in the war, and has only contempt for Hydra.

...Plus, the Maximoff name is derived from Russian, and while Zemo seems to be a fun name comic writers came up with on their own, Helmut is very German.

I wouldn’t be shocked if Zemo and Wanda hail from different ethnicities within the same country.

[Username taken]

Re: Thunderbolts.

Has there been anything from Marvel that mentioned the Thunderbolts or it it fan speculation? Because majority of fan speculation around the last Marvel series- Wandavision, was completely off the mark (although Marvel were rather irresponsible with this with them having Evan Peters appear as Quicksilver).

MCU Zemo has a serious aversion to supersoldiers and superhumans as a whole, I can't imagine him leading any form of super team.

[Besouro]

I think that's plausible. Honestly I'd like if Sam stayed as Falcon. It's his own unique identity

Sam will still be Falcon with the wings and flight style just under the legacy of Cap in name and insignia just like the comics.

[Besouro]

Who better to lead a team of dangerous criminal superhumans than someone who doesn't trust them at all? He won't hesitate to press the kill button.

My main question is, how is Wakanda gonna allow him to be walking about?

General Thunderbolt Ross can also do the exact same thing after all the Thunderbolts will be criminals.