Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[godisawesome]

It's because the show hasn't really given us any clear understanding of the motivation behind their doing what they are doing.

Apparently the GRC are bad, but how, exactly? Something vague about camps and displacing refugees? But how is GRC doing that, exactly? I mean, if you have people who moved into the US (or whatever country) during the blip ... sure, I guess there would be chaos and overcrowding, when the other half of the population pops back into existence. But what does the US (and other countries') government do about it? GRC ... somehow ... gets involved, and in some not-at-all-explained way are not on the up and up about it? But the show hasn't really shown us how they are like Hydra or Nazi evil or something, so it's kind of hard to get sympathize with why the Flag Smashers should feel justified to resort to terrorist methods to combat them.

I mean, we saw Karli blow up that warehouse or whatever, and kill the tied up guards with it. Have we seen GRC kill anybody?

Even, really -- how are the Flag Smashers really helping any of the many people we've been told they are helping? By ... stealing supplies from GRC warehouses, and distributing them to people living in GRC refugee camps? What??

I mean, they're unfortunately just a group of characters with only the most vaguely defined motivations, so of course it's hard to sympathize with them. Even what they have suffered ... what have they suffered, exactly? We haven't really been showed even that, I don't think.

The GRC and Flag Smasher plotline seems likely to be suffering from the reshoots caused not by Covid’s impact on production, but by how they reportedly removed an entire virus based plotline from the story because ti was too close to home.

What *is* in the show, as of the last episode, is basically a situation where the GRC is determined to expel 20 million “unwanted” immigrants who moved across borders during the Blip to respond to manpower and infrastructure shortages caused by the Blip (as supply lines, rather than the gross amount of resources, is actually behind shortages and surpluses - Thanos was wrong.)

Apparently, Karli and the people in the camps represent the reverse of Aunt May’s situation when she came back - they weren’t Blipped out and are basically being deprived of the jobs, homes, and sanctuary they had because the “original owners” came back, and the GRC seems to be about restoring things to the previous status quo, at the expense fo these refugees.

The fact there’s 20 million of them is likely the biggest issue - that’s basically an entire country’s worth of refugees, with all the exploitation, deprivation, and despair that entails. The GRC is apparently failing to provide for them or listen to their desires to not leave their current nations - and apparently is failing hard enough at the distribution of supplies that even GRC officials worry about the camps not being supplied enough as it already is, while Karlie and co. apparently *are* helping by hijacking supplies for them.

The GRC is effectively killing people via gross negligence and apathy caused by a desire to return to “normal” regardless of how ill-advised that might be; the one “Senator” character they haven’t named yet especially seems to personify the idea that the “haves” are forcing the “have nots” to bear the burden of restoring the status quo.

You can tell they didn’t film any clear exposition scenes, though, and are likely patching together a handful of reshot scenes or dialogue with older footage.

[TooFlyToFail]

I have looked up the definition of "anti" and "hero" and "villain". There's no gray area here.

Well, that's a pretty big sidestep.

Here's what TV Tropes tells us:

An Archetypal Character who is almost as common in modern fiction as the Ideal Hero, an anti-hero is a protagonist who has the opposite of most of the traditional attributes of a hero. They may be bewildered, ineffectual, deluded, or merely apathetic. More often an anti-hero is just an amoral misfit. While heroes are typically conventional, anti-heroes, depending on the circumstances, may be preconventional (in a "good" society), postconventional (if the government is "evil") or even unconventional. Not to be confused with the villain or the Big Bad, who is the opponent of Heroes (and Anti-Heroes, for that matter).

Most are to the cynical end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism.

There are just as many variations on Anti-Heroes as there are normal heroes. Some common attributes are: rarely speaking, being a loner, either extreme celibacy or extreme promiscuity, parental issues, occasional Past Experience Nightmares and flashbacks relating to a Dark and Troubled Past that can take many forms depending on the Anti-Hero in question; and being able to tell the story of their life through any Nick Cave song. Some won't Save the Villain, but they will Shoot the Dog, and they will not hesitate to kill anyone who threatens them.

[green_garnish]

Well, that's a pretty big sidestep.

Here's what TV Tropes tells us:

Ah yes, TV Tropes, the archtypical example of the English language.

It's pretty amazing that actual definitions are viewed as side steps.

[Adam West]

The GRC and Flag Smasher plotline seems likely to be suffering from the reshoots caused not by Covid’s impact on production, but by how they reportedly removed an entire virus based plotline from the story because ti was too close to home.

What *is* in the show, as of the last episode, is basically a situation where the GRC is determined to expel 20 million “unwanted” immigrants who moved across borders during the Blip to respond to manpower and infrastructure shortages caused by the Blip (as supply lines, rather than the gross amount of resources, is actually behind shortages and surpluses - Thanos was wrong.)

Apparently, Karli and the people in the camps represent the reverse of Aunt May’s situation when she came back - they weren’t Blipped out and are basically being deprived of the jobs, homes, and sanctuary they had because the “original owners” came back, and the GRC seems to be about restoring things to the previous status quo, at the expense fo these refugees.

The fact there’s 20 million of them is likely the biggest issue - that’s basically an entire country’s worth of refugees, with all the exploitation, deprivation, and despair that entails. The GRC is apparently failing to provide for them or listen to their desires to not leave their current nations - and apparently is failing hard enough at the distribution of supplies that even GRC officials worry about the camps not being supplied enough as it already is, while Karlie and co. apparently *are* helping by hijacking supplies for them.

The GRC is effectively killing people via gross negligence and apathy caused by a desire to return to “normal” regardless of how ill-advised that might be; the one “Senator” character they haven’t named yet especially seems to personify the idea that the “haves” are forcing the “have nots” to bear the burden of restoring the status quo.

You can tell they didn’t film any clear exposition scenes, though, and are likely patching together a handful of reshot scenes or dialogue with older footage.

I thought they explain it very well with Karli providing the exposition in eps 4.
My understanding is also the same as you above

[TooFlyToFail]

Ah yes, TV Tropes, the archtypical example of the English language.

It's pretty amazing that actual definitions are viewed as side steps.

Yeah, because you looked up anti, hero and villain, and not anti-hero. Anti-heroes have been used as flawed grey area characters for decades. Jack isn't a villain. He's not Thanos or Zemo, killing or harming random innocents/civilians.

[Immortal Weapon]

It was a friendly gesture, as well extremely arrogant. I'd expect a negative response, but that doesn't warrant an assault. Also, legally, he's was in the right to also try to arrest Zemo. That also doesn't warrant a spear to the head.

It was also their legal right to have Zemo in their custody. He did kill their king afterall. Arguably, you can say what Walker did was obstruction of justice. What jurisdiction would he really have in an Eastern European country and by who's authority?

[TooFlyToFail]

It was also their legal right to have Zemo in their custody. He did kill their king afterall. Arguably, you can say what Walker did was obstruction of justice. What jurisdiction would he really have in an Eastern European country and by who's authority?

He worked for the GRC, so he had jurisdiction. The only thing he did off the books, was use Sam and Bucky using Zemo. Not to mention, was it only T'Chaka killed in that attack? What gives them more right to arrest him? Anyone of authority should be able to.

Again, the MCs broke the criminal out of jail, and still used him after he murdered a man in front of them, unprovoked, creating this incident. Let's not try to paint Walker in the wrong there, when he didn't attack anyone.

Honestly, all of this is made moot because he ends up at the Raft anyway. The way the DM acted, you'd think they were taking him to Wakanda.

[Frontier]

I was saying elsewhere but it seems the MCU really likes using Z-list villains over B/C-list ones

I feel like there's a good mix in there.

I agree here. I feel like Isaiah's pain and trauma are too much to simply gloss over with some kind of hopeful turn without him feeling jaded. I could live with a begrudging "We'll see," or see him reacting to someone like Eli having a more positive reaction with a glimmer of potential. But I might like to see them leave anything more than that to future appearances in other projects. Particularly if Marvel is, in fact, building towards an eventual Young Avengers project, where that seems like a meaty bit of character work for his relationship with Eli to ultimately reflect. And I'm not sure this show can devote sufficient time to it given the other characters that are already getting focused on in plot related elements.

I wonder if Eli will still get a blood transfusion to give him the Super Soldier serum. He doesn't seem like he'll have the timeframe or the means to get training to be peak human.

Z-list villains make for good fodder for the hero's first outing. Why wasted the archnemesis on the first go?

Actually, usually the first movie starts off with the archenemy:

Burton Batman - Joker

Donner Superman - Lex Luthor

Raimi Spider-Man - Green Goblin

Cap: The First Avenger - Red Skull

Thor 1 - Loki

Dr. Strange - Dormammu (unless you count Baron Mordo, but he was still in it)

Black Panther - Killmonger (and Klaw too, if you think it's him).

Aquaman kind of went around it in that Black Manta was there but he wasn't the main villain, while Cheetah didn't appear until Wonder Woman 1984. Iron Man didn't face off against the Mandarin until his third movie but then he didn't even really fight the Mandarin.

But they suck. At least use a lame villain we might see from time to time, instead of a nobody like Darren Cross.

I actually really liked Cross in Ant-Man. Him being this cocky, arrogant, jerk who felt jilted by Hank and tried to screw him over made for a nice counterpoint with Scott and I loved how fervently he was trying to kill Scott as Yellowjacket.

"I WILL DESTROY YOU!!!"

I hope he comes back.

[TooFlyToFail]

Isn't Cross confirmed dead?

Also, I feel like Marvel Studios forgot that Hydra has Pym Particles. Maybe that plot thread will come back.

[Frontier]

Isn't Cross confirmed dead?

Also, I feel like Marvel Studios forgot that Hydra has Pym Particles. Maybe that plot thread will come back.

The director implied he might not be (and might be in the Quantum Realm?).

I think that spare Pym Particles might be how we get Eric O'Grady or Erik Josten their powers.

[CosmiComic]

Ok. I thought Cross' suit was cool, but his characterization was a bit lame

They could've used Atlas to set up Thunderbolts, but that may not have been in the plans then

[godisawesome]

Isn't Cross confirmed dead?

Also, I feel like Marvel Studios forgot that Hydra has Pym Particles. Maybe that plot thread will come back.

Any resurgent Hydra elements would be interesting to see on the table - the five year skip allows plenty of time to in-story argue they were reconstituted back into a fascist spy organization instead of an Inhuman cult.

Though I might want it to be something more nuanced than that - like Hydra data and personnel were reintegrated into an intelligence agency to meet the needs of the Blip, and leadership is all loyal SHIELD personnel keeping their new thugs in check... as HAMMER.

[TooFlyToFail]

Any resurgent Hydra elements would be interesting to see on the table - the five year skip allows plenty of time to in-story argue they were reconstituted back into a fascist spy organization instead of an Inhuman cult.

Though I might want it to be something more nuanced than that - like Hydra data and personnel were reintegrated into an intelligence agency to meet the needs of the Blip, and leadership is all loyal SHIELD personnel keeping their new thugs in check... as HAMMER.

Sign me up for that!

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'd rather Hydra stay dead, and we get some new guys pulling crap. Secret Empire, it's your time to shine!

[Immortal Weapon]

He worked for the GRC, so he had jurisdiction. The only thing he did off the books, was use Sam and Bucky using Zemo. Not to mention, was it only T'Chaka killed in that attack? What gives them more right to arrest him? Anyone of authority should be able to.

Again, the MCs broke the criminal out of jail, and still used him after he murdered a man in front of them, unprovoked, creating this incident. Let's not try to paint Walker in the wrong there, when he didn't attack anyone.

Honestly, all of this is made moot because he ends up at the Raft anyway. The way the DM acted, you'd think they were taking him to Wakanda.

The Wakandans don't really care about power structures that isn't their own. Everything the dora done up to a point was done with discretion. If Zemo didn't get away in that moment no one but the people in the room would have known they've taken him.

Technically Bucky didn't break Zemo out of jail. He broke himself out.