Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[j9ac9k]

I don't think he's insane; just distraught and grieving. I think however Karli is dealt with will determine his path.

I would love if Sam managed to talk down everyone, except Karli, and tries to kill him from behind after the fight is over, only to be decapitated by Walker. Sam is horrified, but Walker tells him that this is sometimes what needs to happen...but not by Sam. He admits that Sam is more suited in the position of Cap, while he goes on his own path. Then he gets a call from Ross and Contessa.

That way, it's a lateral step down for his character. Because Karli was going for the kill, he gets to stay in the grey zone.

I'd love a more grey rivalry between Sam and Walker, moving forward. Two sides of the shield: the one that focuses on those being proteced vs the one that focuses on what they're defending against.

Aside from how much I hate the "good guy lets the bad guy live then gets to kill them anyway because the bad guy tries to shoot the good guy in the back" cliche, there's no way they'd do that as a way to validate Walker in any way. You may be rooting for him, but I don't think this show is letting him get a win here, or be the "good guy who gets his hands dirty", where he saves Sam's life, thereby neutering the hero of the show and kills the bad guy who's about to commit murder, thereby justifying his actions? (it's like how The Punisher is always shown as right in his fights against DD, but only in his own title, from his POV - everywhere else, he's a mass murdering psycho) That's way too good for him and would come across as totally against the whole point of the show. It's the "righteous, lethal rule-breaker" attitude that's lead to police feeling justified doing anything they want. If John's worthy of even working his way back up to grey, it'll be awhile. That's my feeling based on the ground work this show has laid out and what seems to me to be the story Marvel wants to tell.

[CosmiComic]

Yeah, that's exactly how the police think

Although it's weird to see Marvel criticize it considering Cibil war basically argued for that

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, that's exactly how the police think

Although it's weird to see Marvel criticize it considering Cibil war basically argued for that

In fairness, Cap was going to peacefully resign before things got to punching

[CosmiComic]

In fairness, Cap was going to peacefully resign before things got to punching

Not just the movie though, but the comic too. It seems Marvel likes to act like super-powered people are oppressed if they have to answer to some authority before they beat someone up

[DrNewGod]

Not just the movie though, but the comic too. It seems Marvel likes to act like super-powered people are oppressed if they have to answer to some authority before they beat someone up

They're leaving unsaid the assumption that the authority will continue want them beating people up, but on the authority's say, regardless of whether it's utterly amoral.

[j9ac9k]

Yeah, that's exactly how the police think

Although it's weird to see Marvel criticize it considering Cibil war basically argued for that

No, it isn't "exactly how the police think" - I was clearly exaggerating. And dramas tend to simplify as a way to more concisely make their point. I'm just saying Walker isn't going to get his "Dirty Harry" moment where he gets his righteous kill. That's been an attitude embodied more by characters like The Punisher, and it's shown to be dangerous when even law enforcement starts to identify with him.

In terms of "Civil War," I honestly don't think I would've even been on Cap's side, but he's not the Punisher and for whatever reason, the Avengers were allowed to operate privately for years before Lagos. They were given tacit approval if not being outright sanctioned by world governments.

[green_garnish]

It's not like the Avengers had a secret lair like the batcave or fortress of solitude.

[godisawesome]

Aside from how much I hate the "good guy lets the bad guy live then gets to kill them anyway because the bad guy tries to shoot the good guy in the back" cliche, there's no way they'd do that as a way to validate Walker in any way. You may be rooting for him, but I don't think this show is letting him get a win here, or be the "good guy who gets his hands dirty", where he saves Sam's life, thereby neutering the hero of the show and kills the bad guy who's about to commit murder, thereby justifying his actions? (it's like how The Punisher is always shown as right in his fights against DD, but only in his own title, from his POV - everywhere else, he's a mass murdering psycho) That's way too good for him and would come across as totally against the whole point of the show. It's the "righteous, lethal rule-breaker" attitude that's lead to police feeling justified doing anything they want. If John's worthy of even working his way back up to grey, it'll be awhile. That's my feeling based on the ground work this show has laid out and what seems to me to be the story Marvel wants to tell.

I think I’d agree that Walker should *not* get the “lateral” move to USAgent or be considered Sam’s equal as a hero, but on the darker side of heroism.

Walker wants to be the paragon that Captain America is, but won’t or can’t hold himself to the standards that requires. And because he covered himself in the more idealistic colors and imaging of the mantle, he’s in effect abused the mantle and imaging to while trying to dodge the repercussions of murdering a man in broad daylight (for admittedly complex emotional reasons), and he’s seeking to continue to abuse it because of his emotional identity crisis.

I’d argue that’s the difference between Punisher and Walker thus far in terms of “styling” - Punisher isn’t making any pretensions of being more than what he is, while Walker is in denial about what he’s done and demands to be Captain America.

The USAgent persona is either going to be Walker still being in denial and dangerous, or Walker admitting his failings and wearing the black costume as a personal mark of shame to stay humble.

[CosmiComic]

They're leaving unsaid the assumption that the authority will continue want them beating people up, but on the authority's say, regardless of whether it's utterly amoral.

Well, some authorities probably also don't want them beating up whomever they choose

No, it isn't "exactly how the police think" - I was clearly exaggerating. And dramas tend to simplify as a way to more concisely make their point. I'm just saying Walker isn't going to get his "Dirty Harry" moment where he gets his righteous kill. That's been an attitude embodied more by characters like The Punisher, and it's shown to be dangerous when even law enforcement starts to identify with him.

In terms of "Civil War," I honestly don't think I would've even been on Cap's side, but he's not the Punisher and for whatever reason, the Avengers were allowed to operate privately for years before Lagos. They were given tacit approval if not being outright sanctioned by world governments.

Sorry, I didn't mean all police. But we can't deny the systemic problem

It's true the Avengers aren't the Punisher and generally didn't cause most of the damage anyway. I just don't get why Marvel portrays accountability as something the villainous

Of course, DC doesn't even seem to bring up accountability

[green_garnish]

I just don't get why Marvel portrays accountability as something the villainous

Of course, DC doesn't even seem to bring up accountability

I think DC has the best approach. Raising the issue of accountability at all in comics raises the issue of lack of due process, and you bring that up and everything superheroes do becomes meaningless because no one could be convicted, or even tried, because of the hero's actions.

[CosmiComic]

I think DC has the best approach. Raising the issue of accountability at all in comics raises the issue of lack of due process, and you bring that up and everything superheroes do becomes meaningless because no one could be convicted, or even tried, because of the hero's actions.

Or they could actually care about due process and actually make the convictions stick

[green_garnish]

Or they could actually care about due process and actually make the convictions stick

That would involve revealing secret identities and negating one of the primary draws of comic books for 80 years.

Nah.

[CosmiComic]

That would involve revealing secret identities and negating one of the primary draws of comic books for 80 years.

Nah.

I'm willing to see some change. Marvel seemed liked it was going to in 06 then reversed it

Is the secret identity even a primary draw anymore?

[Frontier]

I don't think he's insane; just distraught and grieving. I think however Karli is dealt with will determine his path.

I think he's unstable and it'll probably come down to Sam and Bucky to deal with him somehow.

I think he was overwhelmed by just getting the SSS and losing his closest friend. After some time to calm down, he might realize otherwise

The thing is he hasn't calmed down yet. Especially when he's making his own shield so he can go out and kill Flag-Smashers.

[green_garnish]

I'm willing to see some change. Marvel seemed liked it was going to in 06 then reversed it

Is the secret identity even a primary draw anymore?

When a cop busts a murderer and he breaks out of jail, I imagine the cop is very stressed about the safety of his family.

When a superhero busts a supervillain that no ordinary force could defeat, and the heroe's identity is known. I dunno, just seems like a storyline you can never get away from and would grow old really fast.

It's different in the movies when you can actually have the villains die.