Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[green_garnish]

I mean, in Winter Soldier he kicked a dude 20 feet into a Quinjet engine, which directly called back to Steve on the Lumerian Star deck early in the film. In Civil War he Matrix jumps between buildings. They haven't exactly been shy about it, even if they only alluded to it rather than explicitly talking about it. Hell, he keeps pace with both T'Challa and Steve during the CW chase, and explicitly outruns speeding cars.

Now, the only times we explicitly see him outmuscle Steve is via his cybernetic, so it's possible that he's not quite as strong as Steve. But there are other explanations for the way he's fought everyone else (he's holding back because he fears what he can do in almost every fight since the end of TWS). He beats Stark pretty soundly when he cuts loose, for example.

If Bucky is weaker than other super soldiers, which does seem to be the case (the other Winter Soldier candidate appears stronger than him after being given Stark's serum), it isn't by much and can probably be accounted for by being Zola's experimental prototype. (Which was never replicated, either.)

I think it's pretty clear Bucky is a super soldier. The fact that he doesn't beat Cap is only due to him not being as good a fighter/ strategist.

[DrNewGod]

I mean, in Winter Soldier he kicked a dude 20 feet into a Quinjet engine, which directly called back to Steve on the Lumerian Star deck early in the film. In Civil War he Matrix jumps between buildings. They haven't exactly been shy about it, even if they only alluded to it rather than explicitly talking about it. Hell, he keeps pace with both T'Challa and Steve during the CW chase, and explicitly outruns speeding cars.

Now, the only times we explicitly see him outmuscle Steve is via his cybernetic, so it's possible that he's not quite as strong as Steve. But there are other explanations for the way he's fought everyone else (he's holding back because he fears what he can do in almost every fight since the end of TWS). He beats Stark pretty soundly when he cuts loose, for example.

If Bucky is weaker than other super soldiers, which does seem to be the case (the other Winter Soldier candidate appears stronger than him after being given Stark's serum), it isn't by much and can probably be accounted for by being Zola's experimental prototype. (Which was never replicated, either.)

I think it's pretty clear Bucky is a super soldier. The fact that he doesn't beat Cap is only due to him not being as good a fighter/ strategist.

There may be some room to quibble about levels, but yeah, Buck, all the (late) other Winter Soldiers, and the Flag Smashers are all SSS'd. We started seeing Buck go more-than-human in CAWS, when he blithely absorbed a drop that his lackeys needed rappelling gear to negotiate.

[Nate Grey]

I think it's pretty clear Bucky is a super soldier. The fact that he doesn't beat Cap is only due to him not being as good a fighter/ strategist.

This. I think the problem is there's a misconception that might wins the day. Oh it helps, yes, but that's not all there is. He's got the serum, and he's got the arm, but if he doesn't have the skills (fighter/strategist) he can lose to even non-powered beings and fairly quickly.

[ZeroBG82]

This. I think the problem is there's a misconception that might wins the day. Oh it helps, yes, but that's not all there is. He's got the serum, and he's got the arm, but if he doesn't have the skills (fighter/strategist) he can lose to even non-powered beings and fairly quickly.

More than that, you also have to consider Bucky's headspace. As the brainwashed Winter Soldier, it's entirely plausible that some of his fights (Steve and Isaiah, in case there's any doubt which I'm referring to) might have been influenced by Bucky's unwillingness to be participating. The little scraps of his true self holding him back against people he knows he shouldn't be fighting. Even the smallest delay in reaction, or the slightest pulling of a punch changes the way those fights could play out when his opponents have superhuman strength and speed to counter.

And since returning to himself, Bucky has clearly been scared of what he's capable of. We haven't seen him go all out, not because he can't, but because he's still terrified of what happens when he does. You can see that most clearly in FaWS ep 3 when he's playacting as the WS in Madripoor. Bucky is less effective as a fighter not because he lacks the skills, but because he associates those skills with the worst of himself. That's almost certainly the reason he fares so poorly during the episode 2 convoy chase. Bucky can almost certainly out fight any of the Flag Smashers. But if he fights to win, what might awaken inside of him?

Part of me is hoping that going to toe to toe with Walker might force Bucky to confront some of those issues and really put on a show. But we'll see. Sam might get that fight, and he'll win by being clever and creative rather than using brute force. So either way it should be fun.

[godisawesome]

I tend to think there’s a suggestion Bucky’s super-soldier serum is modestly lesser than Steve’s; we saw Steve overpower Bucky’s robot arm in grappling during TWS, and I don’t think their skills at fighting are different in terms of degree, but in terms fo specialization.

Steve went from being a straight-up-soldier to being something very much near a stealth operative who primarily uses melee or the shield to take out his opponents quietly but flexibly, with a strong defense.

Bucky went from being the sniper/sharpshooter of the Howling Commandos to an assassin that Hydra had no problem with collateral damage or being noisy with. He’s much more offensive based in his fighting style, as well as using firearms quite a lot more.

The Winter Soldier is about the kill, period, while Rogers was about controlling the situation through any tactics, including less-than-lethal ones.

[Nate Grey]

More than that, you also have to consider Bucky's headspace. As the brainwashed Winter Soldier, it's entirely plausible that some of his fights (Steve and Isaiah, in case there's any doubt which I'm referring to) might have been influenced by Bucky's unwillingness to be participating. The little scraps of his true self holding him back against people he knows he shouldn't be fighting. Even the smallest delay in reaction, or the slightest pulling of a punch changes the way those fights could play out when his opponents have superhuman strength and speed to counter.

And since returning to himself, Bucky has clearly been scared of what he's capable of. We haven't seen him go all out, not because he can't, but because he's still terrified of what happens when he does. You can see that most clearly in FaWS ep 3 when he's playacting as the WS in Madripoor. Bucky is less effective as a fighter not because he lacks the skills, but because he associates those skills with the worst of himself. That's almost certainly the reason he fares so poorly during the episode 2 convoy chase. Bucky can almost certainly out fight any of the Flag Smashers. But if he fights to win, what might awaken inside of him?

So...actual fighters who could probably take it if he lets loose (Isaiah, Steve, et al), he lets the scraps of himself hold himself back even to a small degree, resulting in loss... Non combatants that have probably never seen a fight a day in their lives, well they can go meet their maker, the "scraps" stay dormant with them? I'm not sure I buy that, unless you're trying to say deep down when faced with an equivalent opponent his delays were meant to be a form of suicide so the opponent could potentially end his life and the nightmare of being an unwilling assassin. If so, still that's one of those things that kinda need to be said onscreen no matter how much it makes sense. Otherwise gonna stick with Hydra trained him to kill and evade not go long bouts.

Part of me is hoping that going to toe to toe with Walker might force Bucky to confront some of those issues and really put on a show. But we'll see. Sam might get that fight, and he'll win by being clever and creative rather than using brute force. So either way it should be fun.

Yeah I'm wondering about that myself. Will it be Sam vs Walker with Bucky vs Karli, or Sam vs Karli and Bucky vs Walker.

[The Cool Thatguy]

More than that, you also have to consider Bucky's headspace. As the brainwashed Winter Soldier, it's entirely plausible that some of his fights (Steve and Isaiah, in case there's any doubt which I'm referring to) might have been influenced by Bucky's unwillingness to be participating. The little scraps of his true self holding him back against people he knows he shouldn't be fighting. Even the smallest delay in reaction, or the slightest pulling of a punch changes the way those fights could play out when his opponents have superhuman strength and speed to counter.

And since returning to himself, Bucky has clearly been scared of what he's capable of. We haven't seen him go all out, not because he can't, but because he's still terrified of what happens when he does. You can see that most clearly in FaWS ep 3 when he's playacting as the WS in Madripoor. Bucky is less effective as a fighter not because he lacks the skills, but because he associates those skills with the worst of himself. That's almost certainly the reason he fares so poorly during the episode 2 convoy chase. Bucky can almost certainly out fight any of the Flag Smashers. But if he fights to win, what might awaken inside of him?

Part of me is hoping that going to toe to toe with Walker might force Bucky to confront some of those issues and really put on a show. But we'll see. Sam might get that fight, and he'll win by being clever and creative rather than using brute force. So either way it should be fun.

Bucky gutshot Steve, I think he was always on mission. He didn't hold back against Steve when Zemo reactivated him, and same with T'Challa.

Winter Soldier is clearly better at working at a distance against foes he outclasses, vs. close in against people equal or superior to him

[ZeroBG82]

So...actual fighters who could probably take it if he lets loose (Isaiah, Steve, et al), he lets the scraps of himself hold himself back even to a small degree, resulting in loss... Non combatants that have probably never seen a fight a day in their lives, well they can go meet their maker, the "scraps" stay dormant with them?

No, I'm saying that Bucky's influence would have been incredibly minimal, so as to be essentially subconscious "mistakes." Non-super opponents simply didn't have the speed or strength to capitalize on them in the same way that someone like Steve or Isaiah would have. And even if you got an opening, it's a question of doing enough damage to even slow the WS down. Steve struggled in their first fight, but recognized what needed to happen in their second. Isaiah clearly had enough sense and power to cripple the Soldier's cybernetics and take him out of the fight. A normal opponent doesn't have those capabilities ready to hand.

But yeah, you're absolutely right that his skill set as an assassin wouldn't necessarily be built around the kind of fighting that Steve frequently engaged in. Different tools. Also have to consider that WS would have been used to having a dramatic advantage in his engagements, being a supersoldier going up against normal people. Suddenly running into somebody like Steve or Isaiah, who are essentially on an even playing field with him, might expose his relative lack of skill by comparison. Stuff he got away with against normal people suddenly gets punished by a superhuman opponent.

Hell, you can even see a bit of it in the way Natasha almost gets the best of him in CA:WS. He walks almost blindly into her trap, which is both a testament to her cleverness but also to his ego. Even if she gets the drop on him, what's she going to do against his powers? But her stingers give her an edge that she uses well and almost manages to beat him. He's a bit of a blunt instrument, all told.

Bucky gutshot Steve, I think he was always on mission.

Didn't head shot him though, did he? I'm not talking about Bucky being able to influence the WS enough to outright slow down and stop him. But small choices, tiny mistakes. The kind of fight any way you can influences that you might be able to slip around the programming. There's a difference between being able to swerve the car entirely into another lane and just keeping your foot off the gas enough to let them stay on your tail.

[Frontier]

Yeah I'm wondering about that myself. Will it be Sam vs Walker with Bucky vs Karli, or Sam vs Karli and Bucky vs Walker.

Maybe Sam and Bucky tag-team Walker?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Maybe Sam and Bucky tag-team Walker?

Probably. Walker, unlike the Flagsmashers, has actual combat training and experience. That's gonna be a hard fight

[CosmiComic]

Idk if they'll actually fight Walker. It seems too cliche to me.

[ZeroBG82]

Probably. Walker, unlike the Flagsmashers, has actual combat training and experience. That's gonna be a hard fight

It sure LOOKS like it's the signature fight coming at the climax of this story. I don't know if that will end up being the case as there are enough loose threads dangling they could go another way. But right now he has some serious final boss energy in this story.

[Frontier]

I guess it depends on how far they want to address the Power Broker.

I feel like Sam and Bucky are going to have to prevent Walker from killing the rest of the Flag-Smashers.

[godisawesome]

Arguably, Sam’s ideal victory over Walker would be to demonstrate he *could* beat him... but end up subduing him emotionally, philosophically, and mentally instead somehow. That way, Sam gets to show he’s tough enough for the job... but he also gets to show how right Steve was to pick him.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I guess it depends on how far they want to address the Power Broker.

I feel like Sam and Bucky are going to have to prevent Walker from killing the rest of the Flag-Smashers.

I see the Power Broker being a hook for season 2.