Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[Tofali]

I see, but didn't Civil War already do that?

that is why I added "unless that is their intention."

My main point is, instead of villains holding heroes accountable, couldn't heroes hold villains accountable?

I think that would ruin the introduction of new characters don't you think? e.g. Sam and Monica. They had to ascribe to the point of views of the protagonist whether it was wrong or right.

[CosmiComic]

that is why I added "unless that is their intention."



I think that would ruin the introduction of new characters don't you think? e.g. Sam and Monica. They had to ascribe to the point of views of the protagonist whether it was wrong or right.

Not necessarily. Maybe the main hero isn't always right. Don't people say "perfect heroes" aren't interesting?

[Frontier]

Not necessarily. Maybe the main hero isn't always right. Don't people say "perfect heroes" aren't interesting?

Well...Wanda...

[PCN24454]

Well...Wanda...

Exactly. While people like to add a bit of flavor to heroes, they tend to still like them to be heroic. Any flaw that they have will be mocked mercilessly.

[CosmiComic]

Well...Wanda...

I guess. But I think it's not necessarily bad if heroes are challenged on their beliefs by other heroes.

But I think the heroes can still challenge thr actual viains in terms of accountability, instead of the reverse

Exactly. While people like to add a bit of flavor to heroes, they tend to still like them to be heroic. Any flaw that they have will be mocked mercilessly.

People say they like flawed heroes, but will also complain if the heroes get their comeuppance

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'd say Sam tries to hold Karli, John and Zemo accountable. So we might see more of that in Cap 4.

To me, the big 3(Cap, Tony, Thor) lend themselves to that kind of storytelling.

[CosmiComic]

I hope so. The whole "accountability is a threat" business is tiresome

[silvercover]

I do kinda wonder if Walker would be on Zemo's radar even if he knew. maybe when he was Captain America but I have a feeing as US Agent that presumably just follows orders from the govt or some other kind of organization, so long as said orders Walker is getting isn't destructive, I think Zemo would let him go about his own way. I think part of the reason he also went agains the Avengers is for revenge on having Stark see his group be broken and maybe also blames them for basically letting Stark do it, if not directly but indirectly for fueling the group's ego in that they are above the law and can do whatever they believe is right.

[Frontier]

I do kinda wonder if Walker would be on Zemo's radar even if he knew. maybe when he was Captain America but I have a feeing as US Agent that presumably just follows orders from the govt or some other kind of organization, so long as said orders Walker is getting isn't destructive, I think Zemo would let him go about his own way. I think part of the reason he also went agains the Avengers is for revenge on having Stark see his group be broken and maybe also blames them for basically letting Stark do it, if not directly but indirectly for fueling the group's ego in that they are above the law and can do whatever they believe is right.

I don't see Zemo thinking Walker is safe with the Super Soldier serum, especially after he saw how out of his depth Walker was. He would seem to Zemo as liable to go the way of the Flag-Smashers.

Walker lucked out that Zemo has no idea he took the serum.

[Sutekh]

The whole Zemo becoming a Baron thing amuses me.

Technically, he's only a Baron because Ultron dropped a city on his dad (and wife and son), and he inherited the job. But he doesn't seem inclined to be grateful.

And now he says that Sokovia has been swallowed up by surrounding countries and no longer exists. (One of those surrounding countries *IS* going to be revealed to be Latveria. Fight me.) So he's not really much of a Baron anyway, since I'm pretty sure noble titles conferred by countries that don't exist are worth exactly bupkiss.

I wonder if it could be that we never saw his murder-butler back in the day because the murder-butler was off doing other stuff. The MCU has been good at digging back into it's own past, using Chitauri tech in the first Spider-Man movie, using Tony's 'BARF' holographic stuff in the second Spider-Man movie, etc. so it could be funny to find out that Zemo's flunky was active behind the scenes in the Civil War days, setting stuff up or gathering intel or whatever.

[Vic Vega]

I see, but didn't Civil War already do that?

My main point is, instead of villains holding heroes accountable, couldn't heroes hold villains accountable?

Who says they don't?

Nearly all MCU villains die fighting because Marvel movies adhere to standard action movie logic. If the good guy doesn't finish the bad guy once and for all, what was the point? Where's the finality? The vast majority of MCU fans are movie fans and not comic fans so this isn't a problem for them.

In the MCU going to jail means they are probably going to use that villain again. Loki is the classic example of this and Zemo was the latest example of it. Abomination got sent to jail in the second Hulk movie and is still there, mainly because the writers forgot all about him. Vulture may be an exception because I don't know that Michael Keaton will come back even if they want him to.

Every other Marvel villain has gotten action movie'd.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Who says they don't?

Nearly all MCU villains die fighting because Marvel movies adhere to standard action movie logic. If the good guy doesn't finish the bad guy once and for all what was the point? Where's the finality? The vast majority of MCU fans are movie fans and not comics fans so this isn't a problem for them.

In the MCU going to jail means they are probably going to use that villain again. Loki is the classic example of this and Zemo was the latest example of it. Abomination got sent to jail in the second Hulk movie and is still there, mainly because the writers forgot all about him. Vulture may be an exception because I don't know that Michael Keaton will come back even if they want him to.

Every other Marvel villain gets action movie'd.

Minor disagreement.

Marvel villains die because their evil has to be answered in turn. Hela, Ultron et all loved to kick themselves some puppies. They had to get crotch kicked by karma.

Doing the same to Loki and Zemo, who were sympathetic, would seem like overkill. Zemo had lost his family, while Loki returns home in disgrace. Death isn't the same punishment for them that it is for others.

[CosmiComic]

Who says they don't?

Nearly all MCU villains die fighting because Marvel movies adhere to standard action movie logic. If the good guy doesn't finish the bad guy once and for all, what was the point? Where's the finality? The vast majority of MCU fans are movie fans and not comic fans so this isn't a problem for them.

In the MCU going to jail means they are probably going to use that villain again. Loki is the classic example of this and Zemo was the latest example of it. Abomination got sent to jail in the second Hulk movie and is still there, mainly because the writers forgot all about him. Vulture may be an exception because I don't know that Michael Keaton will come back even if they want him to.

Every other Marvel villain has gotten action movie'd.

Ok. I don't see what's wrong with keeping villains alive. I don't see why going to prison isn't finality.

My point is this: villains like Zemo are motivated by "trying to hold heroes accountable for damage". Why can't the reverse be true?

[j9ac9k]

My point is this: villains like Zemo are motivated by "trying to hold heroes accountable for damage". Why can't the reverse be true?

I don't see that as Zemo's motivation. I believe he said super-powered people shouldn't exist. He's doesn't seem to draw a distinction between "heroes and villains" since he doesn't see them as heroes.

[CosmiComic]

I don't see that as Zemo's motivation. I believe he said super-powered people shouldn't exist. He's doesn't seem to draw a distinction between "heroes and villains" since he doesn't see them as heroes.

Well, it stems from them supposedly not caring about his family. Although they've saved the world several times over, so his attitude seems baseless to me