Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[TooFlyToFail]

He tried to kill Sam the way as Nico with Shield. He isn't this antihero you are selling. He cross the line with murdering Nico and then confirmed by trying kill Sam. We have every indication that he would try to kill again Sam if Sam try stop him from killing the Flag smashers. We have every indication that he would kill surrendering Flag smashers again.

How you do things matter whether you want to believe it or not

He killed a murderer, who was hunting him for assassination. Nico surrendering after messing up doesn't change that fact. It was wrong to do, but that's nothing to call someone a villain for.

He did try to kill Sam. I'll give you that. Tho, the context is that he was emotionally distraught, which was even more heightened by the SSS, and they were basically stopping him from going after the Flag Smashers.

Both the things he did are complicated given context, despite him being in the wrong. Nothing he did is irredeemable, thus he's not a villain yet.

Also, I think the act of him making his own shield means that he's got no reason to try and kill Sam again. He was in a crazy rage before, because they were taking the shield. Him giving up on that shield and making a more personal one implies that he's moved on from that. Him killing Sam to prove he's the best Cap would come out of nowhere now. I don't see it would further his goals; especially since we know he's not inherently a bad man.

[silvercover]

reminder that stark tried to kill bucky in a fit of rage when he found bucky killed his parents, I guess stark is a villain too then.

[TooFlyToFail]

reminder that stark tried to kill bucky in a fit of rage when he found bucky killed his parents, I guess stark is a villain too then.

He apparently gets a pass, because we like him more it seems?

I mean, that's how I viewed that. If Tony is in the clear, so should Walker. Or at least, we view Tony as a more grey character; I think the same is the case for Walker. Let's also remember that Tony was also allowed to do whatever he wanted after Ultron...

[Killerbee911]

Tony Stark and Lex Luthor are functionally the same character to me. So you have answer of what I think of Iron Man in general.

I mean you guys can keep pretending what happen before and after doesn't matter but we can see John Walker slow breaking down before the killing, We can see what he does what his attitude is after the killing. I mean can point why Iron Man isn't a villain based on his action after but I am fine with calling Iron Man, John Walker, Hulk and Scarlet Witch villain if needed.

[TooFlyToFail]

Tony Stark and Lex Luthor are functionally the same character to me. So you have answer of what I think of Iron Man in general.

I mean you guys can keep pretending what happen before and after doesn't matter but we can see John Walker slow breaking down before the killing, We can see what he does what his attitude is after the killing. I mean can point why Iron Man isn't a villain based on his action after but I am fine with calling Iron Man, John Walker, Hulk and Scarlet Witch villain if needed.

Of the 4 you named, only one hasn't tortured, endangered and/or killed civilians/innocents due to their actions. Guess which one?

Wanda is far more villainous, given her actions. Why even compare her to Walker?

[silvercover]

while not MCU, Maguire's Spider-man also was gonna kill the guy he thought killed his uncle even after the guy was pleading for mercy, he only got distracted when he realized it was the robber he let get away earlier and instead it turned into an accidental death.

[The Cool Thatguy]

reminder that stark tried to kill bucky in a fit of rage when he found bucky killed his parents, I guess stark is a villain too then.

In Stark's defense, he faced far more personal, and legitimate, provocation than Walker, who killed a guy who was begging for his life. And towards the end, he did seem to switch to just arresting them (he could have used a second chest bolt to burn through Bucky's body, after all.)

[greatmetropolitan]

Stark and Walker have similar arcs in their stories leading them to trying to/killing a guy - they're both basically humiliated from the very beginning, and you see it take its toll. Stark starts Civil War hearing about the death of a kid due to the events in Sokovia, tries to do what he thinks is the right thing, alienates half his friends, forcing the retirement of Captain America. He then gets a dressing down from Captain America for effectively interning Wanda. And this is of course all wrapped up in major daddy issues. Oh and Cap knew his dad, to make it worse. He then shows up at the airport expecting basically a pretty quick victory and gets humbled again, his miscalculation causing the serious injury of his best friend. THEN he finds out he was wrong about Bucky. Then he finds out Bucky killed his parents. Its actually perfectly built up for Stark to lose it.

Walker, by comparison, feels like his road to murder is built purely on ego. He's supposed to be Captain America. Cap's two best friends remind him he is not. Then he gets schooled by two normal humans. Takes the serum and still can't save his best friend. For Walker its all about him, his ego, his respect.

The difference between the two men is, for me, that if Stark had time to process and cool off, he wouldn't have tried to kill Bucky, but Walker seems to have doubled down on his belief that yeah, it was totally right to take that dude's head off. One man is trying to be good, one man thinks he is already and shouldn't be questioned on it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Stark and Walker have similar arcs in their stories leading them to trying to/killing a guy - they're both basically humiliated from the very beginning, and you see it take its toll. Stark starts Civil War hearing about the death of a kid due to the events in Sokovia, tries to do what he thinks is the right thing, alienates half his friends, forcing the retirement of Captain America. He then gets a dressing down from Captain America for effectively interning Wanda. And this is of course all wrapped up in major daddy issues. Oh and Cap knew his dad, to make it worse. He then shows up at the airport expecting basically a pretty quick victory and gets humbled again, his miscalculation causing the serious injury of his best friend. THEN he finds out he was wrong about Bucky. Then he finds out Bucky killed his parents. Its actually perfectly built up for Stark to lose it.

Walker, by comparison, feels like his road to murder is built purely on ego. He's supposed to be Captain America. Cap's two best friends remind him he is not. Then he gets schooled by two normal humans. Takes the serum and still can't save his best friend. For Walker its all about him, his ego, his respect.

The difference between the two men is, for me, that if Stark had time to process and cool off, he wouldn't have tried to kill Bucky, but Walker seems to have doubled down on his belief that yeah, it was totally right to take that dude's head off. One man is trying to be good, one man thinks he is already and shouldn't be questioned on it.

I think that you're underestimating/downplaying the other provocations that happened, just prior Tony snapping, though.

In both Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron, Tony was traumatized by the attack on New York, seeing the Avengers as the only way to protect the planet. He put everything into the team, to the point of alienating Pepper (remember when Tony said that they were on a break?). At the airport, he literally begged Cap to surrender, who refused. The battle that followed basically tore the team apart, including crippling his best friend, the same team that Tony sacrificed so much for.

Then, upon reaching the Hydra base, we see that it was basically all for nothing. Zemo had no intention of using the Winter Soldiers. And as salt on top of that wound, Tony learns that the best friend of both himself and his father, the impossible standard to which Tony was always held to, had lied to him about Howard's death.

It wasn't just ego, far from it

[Killerbee911]

while not MCU, Maguire's Spider-man also was gonna kill the guy he thought killed his uncle even after the guy was pleading for mercy, he only got distracted when he realized it was the robber he let get away earlier and instead it turned into an accidental death.

Then that Spiderman is a villain too, Keep bring up examples I am going to keep calling them villains. I am consistent in my viewpoint

[greatmetropolitan]

I think that you're underestimating/downplaying the other provocations that happened, just prior Tony snapping, though.

In both Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron, Tony was traumatized by the attack on New York, seeing the Avengers as the only way to protect the planet. He put everything into the team, to the point of alienating Pepper (remember when Tony said that they were on a break?). At the airport, he literally begged Cap to surrender, who refused. The battle that followed basically tore the team apart, including crippling his best friend, the same team that Tony sacrificed so much for.

Then, upon reaching the Hydra base, we see that it was basically all for nothing. Zemo had no intention of using the Winter Soldiers. And as salt on top of that wound, Tony learns that the best friend of both himself and his father, the impossible standard to which Tony was always held to, had lied to him about Howard's death.

It wasn't just ego, far from it

I completely agree, what I was trying to say was that it was all about ego for John Walker, but it was more of a constant build up for Tony. And you're right, his general trauma and humiliation started before Civil War.

[DrNewGod]

...Civil War arguably got a lot of slack on Cap’s side of the argument simply because in the MCU, it was a fact that Hydra had infiltrated the US government and Shield to such an extent the two were almost inseparable, and because Ross as the Sokovian Accords’s enforcer pretty much immediately led to him applying them as idiotically as possible, while Tony was in a somewhat hypocritical light because he was the guy who’d designed Ultron...

If there was one single thing that genuinely annoyed me about MCU Civil War, it was The Avengers sitting silent while Ross guilted them over the consequences of their actions. I really wanted somebody to say "Hey Hairpiece! Ultron? That's on us. But every last one of those started with you lot letting the Hydra moles in your super-secret agency run amok!"

[CosmiComic]

This stuff is what I was talking about when I mentioned accountability. But somehow that's bad, according to Captain America of all people

If there was one single thing that genuinely annoyed me about MCU Civil War, it was The Avengers sitting silent while Ross guilted them over the consequences of their actions. I really wanted somebody to say "Hey Hairpiece! Ultron? That's on us. But every last one of those started with you lot letting the Hydra moles in your super-secret agency run amok!"

General Ross is nothing if not political in his own way

[TooFlyToFail]

Stark and Walker have similar arcs in their stories leading them to trying to/killing a guy - they're both basically humiliated from the very beginning, and you see it take its toll. Stark starts Civil War hearing about the death of a kid due to the events in Sokovia, tries to do what he thinks is the right thing, alienates half his friends, forcing the retirement of Captain America. He then gets a dressing down from Captain America for effectively interning Wanda. And this is of course all wrapped up in major daddy issues. Oh and Cap knew his dad, to make it worse. He then shows up at the airport expecting basically a pretty quick victory and gets humbled again, his miscalculation causing the serious injury of his best friend. THEN he finds out he was wrong about Bucky. Then he finds out Bucky killed his parents. Its actually perfectly built up for Stark to lose it.

Walker, by comparison, feels like his road to murder is built purely on ego. He's supposed to be Captain America. Cap's two best friends remind him he is not. Then he gets schooled by two normal humans. Takes the serum and still can't save his best friend. For Walker its all about him, his ego, his respect.

The difference between the two men is, for me, that if Stark had time to process and cool off, he wouldn't have tried to kill Bucky, but Walker seems to have doubled down on his belief that yeah, it was totally right to take that dude's head off. One man is trying to be good, one man thinks he is already and shouldn't be questioned on it.

It's also the pressure of of living up to Steve, the realization that he was in his first Avengers-level threat, and the fact that the SSS heights any strong emotions at the time.

People forget that Steve took the SSS before facing the trauma of war, and with no combat experience. Dude was still idealistic, and he was congratulated on that fact. Walker is already disillusioned and is ashamed of himself. Lemar and the status as Captain America (and his wife) being all that's keeping him from snapping. It can't be ego, when he already thinks so little of himself.

[TooFlyToFail]

This stuff is what I was talking about when I mentioned accountability. But somehow that's bad, according to Captain America of all people



General Ross is nothing if not political in his own way

The problem is that the comics and movies will keep having the governments be severely incompetent, so the point of accountability holds less weight...when it shouldn't.