Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[Frontier]

I don't see how making her a Skrull would be a good idea since Skrulls ain't evil in the MCU.

We're getting Secret Invasion. Some Skrulls are probably going to be evil.

[Killerbee911]

It was pretty obvious when you paid attention to the context of every situation he was in. Ya'll just hated him to him.

What was obvious lol, I will give you credit for being right but literally your argument was "Walker killed a murderous terrorist" and you understood that he tried to kill Falcon. Why in the world wouldn't Walker try to kill Karli and other Flagsmashers after being disgraced. We had zero reasons to believe that Walker would choose to save innocents over getting revenge on Karli.

Literally, his storyline is when he gave up trying to be Captain America, and his thinking of what Captain America is, He became what Captain America was and saved people. For 4 episodes the show told us that he was going over the edge(which he did finally do) and he was an egotistic a-hole who makes bad decisions then in the final episode. The show decides to go NAH forget he ruthless murder that guy, Forget that he tried to kill Falcon the same way, He is going to have a moment of clarity out of nowhere and do the right thing when every time before he made the wrong. The scene literally panned away from him because it is supposed to be a surprise that he save the Van. How in world was it obvious that he was going to the right thing?

The show coded him as an unlikeable bad guy hard(as misdirect) so they could pull off this exact moment because the entire audience (except those who irrational like him) believe he would do the wrong thing like he did for the entire show. Yes you were right but we had no reason to believe Walker had not loss his shit and would kill all the Flag smasher. Karli to his face literally told him that his best friend's death was meaningless, You know "the thing" that made him killed Nico while he was twitching still like he was having a breakdown. The whole thing was bizarre to down Walker and them being all chummy out of nowhere, When even in the beginning when they had no reason to hate Walker they were never this nice to him. If they were anywhere this cordial to each this show would have been over in 3 episodes.

But ultimately you are right overall so this pointless to talk about

[silvercover]

some quick thoughts, anyone else feel like Disney underestimated how much a lot of people would dislike Walker?

looks like my overall end point predictions were right but how we got there wasn't quite how I expected. Walker didn't fight Sam and Bucky and they worked together, but me and I imagine most people(though a lot of those people probably expected full on conflict on each other) wouldn't be as smooth as the episode went, Bucky and him were even pretty buddy there like the whole thing where Walker nearly killing them wasn't a big deal to them. well actually, maybe Walker was just going for a knockout in that fight and wouldn't murder them like with the flag smasher. this what I mean, I don't think they intended or thought Walker would be hated as much and that people would just see like a lot of the other arrogant/prideful heroes like Strange or Tony that would get humbled and reveal that he had his own struggles before stepping into a proper hero role, and that the fighting he had with Sam and Bucky would just be water under the bridge since hero vs hero happens a lot in Marvel and that they would be pretty friendly with each other.

nearly thought my prediction on the flag smashers ended up going reverse in that it's only Karli who died while the others(beside the guy that got melted) would be spared but then flag smashers all died later so I was right in the end. nice to see Zemo actually wasn't completely out of the plot even after he gave himself up.

[silvercover]

upon catching up to some the replies here before I give my complete thoughts after seeing more of what others thought:

I think its double standards for you guys to genuinely believe Walker could have been a full on villain by the end of the series despite being a hero in the comics, but then when it comes to [SPOILER]Sharon being a villain you guys are saying its wrong and shouldn't be done.[/SPOILER]

[CosmiComic]

Maybe they shouldn't have made Sam and Bucky so uncooperative in the beginning.

[Killerbee911]

upon catching up to some the replies here before I give my complete thoughts after seeing more of what others thought:

I think its double standards for you guys to genuinely believe Walker could have been a full on villain by the end of the series despite being a hero in the comics, but then when it comes to [SPOILER]Sharon being a villain you guys are saying its wrong and shouldn't be done.[/SPOILER]

A.John Walker is antihero in the comics
B.Sharon is hero in the comics

Nobody is saying he "should" have been a full-on villain the show was showing him going down a dark path(which he does in the comic). I never said Walker was a villain because I wanted him to be a villain. I said he was a villain because everything he was doing was leading to be a villain. It is not a double standard when I see a man bash someone head in with a shield ,then try to kill the lead character you tend to think he is the villain and will continue to do thing in that manner after showing no real remorse in court.

Sharon hasn't been a villain, She has been basically an American Black Widow in the comics (the top female super spy). People really want to see her continue to be that MCU. The show made her a full-on bad guy in fact the show gave her an out to be a good guy again. Then stuck up its middle finger at those fans and go no she is going to be bad guy.

These things aren't the same thing, I thought Walker would full go "bad" in the last episode then have a redemption arc in something in the future which would put him in line with his comic character. It is not even a surprise that they went the route they did it was just spent the whole show telling us that he is this mentally fragile dude who does the wrong thing under pressure. I don't care that Agent 13 is a bad guy now but I get why people are so worked up about it. BUT MCU is a different universe and people are going to have start treating it like that and this is a wake-up call.

[DrNewGod]

Overall i thought this finale was a bit weak but i enjoyed the series as a whole

Yup. The conclusion had its moments, but ultimately, it was a wonderful series whose climax wasn't worthy of it.

[silvercover]

alright after having seen replies and thinking a bit more, I would say the finale was done well but could have been a lot better and powerful.

for one thing, they really should have made this ep a bit longer. feels like they wrapped things up a bit too tightly and quickly to conserve time that some scenes didn't get to properly breath before you get thrust into the next scene. to bring back my earlier post on Disney not expecting the dislike on Walker this much, they could have had a scene where Walker grudgingly works together with Sam and Bucky and vice versa since there should have been a bit of annoyance from Walker's side on them for beating the shit out of him and partly for not helping him enough that led to his failing, then for Sam and Bucky on him for nearly killing them on top of getting in their way at times. 1st half should have been a bit longer, some action scenes could have gone on a bit more, a scene with Walker, Sam and Bucky making peace to each other as well as admitting the mistakes they caused to each other before they get all friendly, a few more seconds on Walker choosing to save the people over going after Karli with like a flashback or mental voice of Lemar saying that Walker makes the best decision in the heat of combat, a fight scene with all 3 fully working together and even doing a shield passing to each other, a scene of Walker getting a chance he could have killed a flag smasher before deciding not to either by his own choice or Sam telling him not. well, maybe this could just be me liking Walker the most in this show and wanted more from him to do.

other than that though, I would say they did it pretty well, resolved pretty much most things here while also laying path for more stuff to do in the future. well, I guess it could have also been neat if they had officially made Bucky take the title of White Wolf, considering that they had Sharon take Power Broker's, so that the new title would have been "Captain America and White Wolf" in the end. there's a couple of other stuffs I wanted to happen but they would fundamentally change the course of the finale so il just post them in a separate post later.

[PD98]

I don't see how making her a Skrull would be a good idea since Skrulls ain't evil in the MCU.

So you believe that all Skrulls are good in the MCU just because the few dozen we saw in Captain Marvel are good? By that logic, all Kree are evil despite Mar-Vell being Kree and good. Even if there are just a few million Skrulls left in the universe that is still enough for there to be a few that are radicalized extremists. I mean if they are doing Secret Invasion there has to be a few Skrulls that are friendlies.

[Killerbee911]

Captain America 4' in the Works With 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Showrunner Malcolm Spellman

I am pleasantly surprised with this news one of the thing that bothered me the most Sam suit felt a little bit cheap. So I am happy that his next showing will be on the big screen where they will put more money into his costume and making everything about it look right.

US agent and Falcon hold down the sequel on Disney plus

[j9ac9k]

Sam Wilson is Captain America, the show made it clear why Steve chose him. Gotta give Mackie gets props for selling the emotional/psychological complexity of Sam Wilson. All in all a very good show.

I really like that they created this series to get Sam into the role. Steve simply handing him the shield was great, but wouldn't have been enough. This series really shows why Sam deserves the shield and it's great that this show addressed the issues it did to get Sam to really embrace it and all that comes with it.

I think the Dora Milaje were the most useless characters in the whole series. I mean they showed up and slapped Walker around so he could say "They arnt even super soldiers." To be honest they could have done the same thing with Falcon beating him in the hotel room and got the same outcome. Then with all the talk of facing Wakanda justice they just hand Zemo over to the Raft. I mean they fought in the hotel room to get Zemo, why would they if their who plan was to take him to the Raft? Just as a plot device to give Zemo a place to recruit his Thunderbolts. I mean Falcon or Bucky could have handed Zemo over to the Raft? They still would have had Zemo in place where he needs to be.

I was surprised at first that the DM took Zemo to the raft, but it makes sense they didn't take him to Wakanda. T'Challa was the one who brought him in in the first place and he chose not to take Zemo to Wakanda - he wanted Zemo to face the world's justice. So the DM (assuming T'Challa is still around) would respect the original deal to not take Zemo. And they didn't like Zemo walking around free at all in any context. They gave Bucky 8 hours, but other than that, they didn't trust him to not escape.

I think its double standards for you guys to genuinely believe Walker could have been a full on villain by the end of the series despite being a hero in the comics, but then when it comes to Sharon being a villain you guys are saying its wrong and shouldn't be done.

It's only a double standard if you assume everyone bases their feelings on what's shown in the comics. I don't think they are. (I'm not) I'm going by what this show and the movies have shown us about them. Walker's road to being an accepted hero was also a long one in the comics - he was a borderline villain, then an "asshole hero" type like Guy Gardner for a long time before he became accepted as a full-on hero.

[Immortal Weapon]

Captain America 4' in the Works With 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Showrunner Malcolm Spellman

I am pleasantly surprised with this news one of the thing that bothered me the most Sam suit felt a little bit cheap. So I am happy that his next showing will be on the big screen where they will put more money into his costume and making everything about it look right.

US agent and Falcon hold down the sequel on Disney plus

The show had a movie budget. Being an actual movie probably won't change much unless they tweak the existing costume.

[silvercover]

btw I think some people are misunderstanding that they are supposed to side with Karli. the point is just that she had a point, but her actions have gone overboard and she's gotten radicalized at this point. Zemo and Walker were actually right about her compared to Sam and Bucky, as she was about to shoot Sam there if Sharon hadn't shot her first. and for those who are gonna say "maybe she wasn't going to actually shoot", she had that tense and tight expression of someone who was gonna shoot and didn't start lowering her arm like in all those other movies/shows that has the villain stand down before being killed by someone else. admirable for Sam to try but he was wrong that she would stop.

though in defense for Sam and to add more on the purpose of Karli's character, the statement he made to the senator there wasn't that Karli was right(which I see that some people are interpreting) but that if the govt keeps being selfish then it would cause more people like Karli to surface. I think people also missed that that scene wasn't just about the whole race thing and attacking the govt but also to make the flag smasher supporters stand down, notice that the scene after it was done has a flag smasher left on the ground in the middle of a crowd to show that their cause was weakened.

[DrNewGod]

My only issue with Sharon is that whole business of her skull-thumping all those dudes in the container yard now makes no sense at all.

They did with Isaiah what I fervently hoped they would not: gave him a closure unworthy of his pain.

[Immortal Weapon]

My only issue with Sharon is that whole business of her skull-thumping all those dudes in the container yard now makes no sense at all.

They did with Isaiah what I fervently hoped they would not: gave him a closure unworthy of his pain.

Sharon taking those guys out still makes sense. They were bounty hunters trying to collect. Those weren't her men.