Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[CosmiComic]

Another issue I had with the series was Sam's "I'm not going to fight you Karli".

That was bullshit and misplaced morality. She killed Lamar and other innocent people too, she lost any moral ground or any sound argument after that point. Those people's lives mattered too.

I think because he still wanted to bring her in non-violently

[wleakr]

Was discussing the show with a co-worker and we were surprised it was only 6 episodes. The funny thing about it is the show brings up complex issues and resolves absolutely NONE of them. Here are four off the top of my head.

I know a mini-series isn't supposed to have all the answers, but if you bring up a particularly complex question out of the blue I would hope think expect you would address it better than they did.

Honestly, I don't see any of these as being painted into a corner.

For point 1, Bucky's been in counseling, with a therapist and with Sam. He's taking steps toward improvement. Initially, befriending and assisting the old man was something he thought would make a difference, then adjusted, after speaking with Sam on how to move on. They probably could've done more with this plot, but I was ok with it. Not sure how much more mileage you can get going deeper when its only meant to be a sub plot.

Point 2. In my mind, the only options are imprison, torture, execute, or brain adjustment...lol. Since Wakanda is supposed to be enlightened, seems within reason they would prefer imprisonment for his crime and Wakanda doesn't strike me as the type of place with much crime to need its own prison.

Point 4. Just the fact that they are even trying to address is good with me. It is definitely complex and would need its own series specifically for dealing with the snap to answer it. I wouldn't expect any resolution to this in this mini-series, but a nod to it was ok for me.

[Frontier]

Another issue I had with the series was Sam's "I'm not going to fight you Karli".

That was bullshit and misplaced morality. She killed Lamar and other innocent people too, she lost any moral ground or any sound argument after that point. Those people's lives mattered too.

I think they gave Karli and the Flag-Smashers too much credit even if we're meant to sympathize with their motivations.

Like, they treated her death as this big tragic thing with Sam carrying her body, but...no one cared. Because she was terrible.

I mean, even in the finale her own people were starting to give her a side-eye and then calling out a WWII soldier for not fighting for a cause or saying the guy she killed "didn't matter."

[Scott Taylor]

I think they gave Karli and the Flag-Smashers too much credit even if we're meant to sympathize with their motivations.

Like, they treated her death as this big tragic thing with Sam carrying her body, but...no one cared. Because she was terrible.

I mean, even in the finale her own people were starting to give her a side-eye and then calling out a WWII soldier for not fighting for a cause or saying the guy she killed "didn't matter."

Yah, Karli really didn't work for me as an inspirational leader. Maybe she appeals to people younger than me in that way? I couldn't see anyone trusting her to lead them to get a McDonalds hamburger, let alone start a revolution. And it was all her delivery, it just wasn't emotional enough and it just didn't seem as if she (the character) cared about anything very much.

[godisawesome]

Karli suffered from her complaints being put too much on the back-burner, and a lack of clarity as to how to handle her final confrontation with Sam. She really could have used some Isaiah-esque “testimony” scene, which you could base off the million of horror stories actual refugees and “unwanted immigrants” have gone through - and so could Sam, as well, since the point of his speech is supposed to be to take up her more humnaitarian policy objectives as much as he ethically can.

And I think they were a bit in conflict with themselves regarding how they wanted Karli’s last minutes to be portrayed. Her screaming and crying for Sam to fight back feels like it would have worked better with her trying to commit “suicide by cop” with him - something that would no doubt have taken on a creepier and more tragic edge if she’d gotten a scene noting increased support for her cause after Nico’s murder.

Sam refusing to fight back against an enemy combatant just trying to kill him doesn’t work. Sam realizing his opponent is trying to be martyred by him? That would go much further in amping up the intended audience reaction. I mean, even just making it clear that Karli is willing to sacrifice herself for her movement would make her more interesting.

[ZuLuLu]

Karli suffered from her complaints being put too much on the back-burner, and a lack of clarity as to how to handle her final confrontation with Sam. She really could have used some Isaiah-esque “testimony” scene, which you could base off the million of horror stories actual refugees and “unwanted immigrants” have gone through - and so could Sam, as well, since the point of his speech is supposed to be to take up her more humnaitarian policy objectives as much as he ethically can.

And I think they were a bit in conflict with themselves regarding how they wanted Karli’s last minutes to be portrayed. Her screaming and crying for Sam to fight back feels like it would have worked better with her trying to commit “suicide by cop” with him - something that would no doubt have taken on a creepier and more tragic edge if she’d gotten a scene noting increased support for her cause after Nico’s murder.

Sam refusing to fight back against an enemy combatant just trying to kill him doesn’t work. Sam realizing his opponent is trying to be martyred by him? That would go much further in amping up the intended audience reaction. I mean, even just making it clear that Karli is willing to sacrifice herself for her movement would make her more interesting.

I think that was what they were going for but never quite pulled it off.

Karli as a character was poorly developed but it seems huge amounts of her storyline were changed due to the pandemic.

[CliffHanger2]

Karli suffered from her complaints being put too much on the back-burner, and a lack of clarity as to how to handle her final confrontation with Sam. She really could have used some Isaiah-esque “testimony” scene, which you could base off the million of horror stories actual refugees and “unwanted immigrants” have gone through - and so could Sam, as well, since the point of his speech is supposed to be to take up her more humnaitarian policy objectives as much as he ethically can.

And I think they were a bit in conflict with themselves regarding how they wanted Karli’s last minutes to be portrayed. Her screaming and crying for Sam to fight back feels like it would have worked better with her trying to commit “suicide by cop” with him - something that would no doubt have taken on a creepier and more tragic edge if she’d gotten a scene noting increased support for her cause after Nico’s murder.

Sam refusing to fight back against an enemy combatant just trying to kill him doesn’t work. Sam realizing his opponent is trying to be martyred by him? That would go much further in amping up the intended audience reaction. I mean, even just making it clear that Karli is willing to sacrifice herself for her movement would make her more interesting.

I don't think she was really trying to kill him up until possibly the end. She admitted her guilt at killing battlestar by accident. At the same time I don't think we are meant to sympathize with her just her concerns. I think Sam thought she was ready to give up that's why he didn't fight back.

[ZeroBG82]

Sam refusing to fight back against an enemy combatant just trying to kill him doesn’t work. Sam realizing his opponent is trying to be martyred by him? That would go much further in amping up the intended audience reaction. I mean, even just making it clear that Karli is willing to sacrifice herself for her movement would make her more interesting.

You're looking at their final fight in the wrong way. Some of that is rightfully on the show for not making it explicit enough.

Their fight is an echo to the final fight in TWS. Sam isn't trying to stop or arrest Karli, she has already been thwarted. Sam is trying to SAVE Karli. From herself, from her anger. It's a fight for her soul.

Sam isn't going to fight Karli because he doesn't believe she will actually kill him. He wants her to see that and admit it to herself. To begin to reconnect to the ideals that started her down the path before she lost her way. Sam is wagering that, despite everything, the good person Karli used to be is still in there and that he can reach her and bring her back from the abyss.

Karli, meanwhile, is desperately clinging to her mission. She doesn't want to kill Sam. Not really. She will, because she's a zealot, but she can only justify it to herself if he is ib her way. If she kills him in battle, as she did Lamar, she can excuse ger misbehavior and still live with herself. Sam's refusal to fight is upsetting to her because she knows that she can't kill in cold blood. Not yet.

The tragedy of the scene is that Sam was maybe going to win. Karli had the gun, Sam was relatively defenseless. If she can't pull that trigger it's over. And maybe there is still a way back for her, as there was for Bucky or for Walker. But before either of them can know for sure Sharon intervenes.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think that was what they were going for but never quite pulled it off.

Karli as a character was poorly developed but it seems huge amounts of her storyline were changed due to the pandemic.

Do we know for a fact that things were changed due to the pandemic? Seems like an odd thing to have been put in the plot

[Frontier]

I don't think she was really trying to kill him up until possibly the end. She admitted her guilt at killing battlestar by accident. At the same time I don't think we are meant to sympathize with her just her concerns. I think Sam thought she was ready to give up that's why he didn't fight back.

I mean, barely guilty when she said she didn't want to kill someone "who didn't matter."

Karli was losing sympathy by the episode.

[ZeroBG82]

I mean, barely guilty when she said she didn't want to kill someone "who didn't matter."

Karli was losing sympathy by the episode.

So, Karli. Here's the thing about Karli. She started (pre-series) as a genuinely good person who saw a problem, people getting stepped on, and chose to act. Her cause is probably just, more or less. Like any issue, it's more complicated than she wants it to be, but she starts on the side of compassion and human dignity.

But the only thing she has absolute faith in is the righteousness of her cause.

Every time she is given cause to doubt, either doing something she knows is wrong or questioning the fight when her friends die, she falls back on that faith and doubles down. Her reaction to questioning her actions is to essentially put her foot down harder on the accelerator. Which becomes a self-perpetuating engine of radicalization. She radicalizes, doubts her actions or is stung by the hurts of her losses, and so radicalizes farther.

The interesting thing is that the reverse is also true. Karli is at her most emotionally vulnerable, most full of doubts and most likely to be talked down just before she escalates. So every time we see her escalate is a signal for her feeling hurt, lost and out of control.

[CliffHanger2]

I mean, barely guilty when she said she didn't want to kill someone "who didn't matter."

Karli was losing sympathy by the episode.

Yeah I mean she wasn't really sympathetic by the end. Even though her last words were "I'm sorry". So we can see why Sam is trying to talk her down from his perspective.

[Vic Vega]

I think that was what they were going for but never quite pulled it off.

Karli as a character was poorly developed but it seems huge amounts of her storyline were changed due to the pandemic.

Its been speculated that the original plot was about some sort of epidemic outbreak with vaccine shortages to people in refugee camps (its why the Flagsmashers are specifically stealing that stuff and why Mama Donya was dying of TB). You can see how that storyline wouldn't fly right about now.

As it is you've still got a story about a bunch of displaced people who were all in camps trying to help people who are still in camps who don't want to be treated like crap anymore. Given what the last couple of years have been like, I am surprised Disney even did that much.

However Marvel Studios may learned the wrong lessons from all the whining about the length of the Netflix Marvel shows. All of them gave the bad guy's actor at least one episode or two to flesh out thier backstory and/or try for an Emmy nomination.

I figure Marvel shows being 6 episodes long is a direct result of those concerns and also budget ( if these shows are gonna have the production values of the Marvel films anything more than 6 hours=2 Avengers Endgames is gonna be an issue).

[Scott Taylor]

So, Karli. Here's the thing about Karli. She started (pre-series) as a genuinely good person who saw a problem, people getting stepped on, and chose to act. Her cause is probably just, more or less. Like any issue, it's more complicated than she wants it to be, but she starts on the side of compassion and human dignity.

But the only thing she has absolute faith in is the righteousness of her cause.

Every time she is given cause to doubt, either doing something she knows is wrong or questioning the fight when her friends die, she falls back on that faith and doubles down. Her reaction to questioning her actions is to essentially put her foot down harder on the accelerator. Which becomes a self-perpetuating engine of radicalization. She radicalizes, doubts her actions or is stung by the hurts of her losses, and so radicalizes farther.

The interesting thing is that the reverse is also true. Karli is at her most emotionally vulnerable, most full of doubts and most likely to be talked down just before she escalates. So every time we see her escalate is a signal for her feeling hurt, lost and out of control.

Thing is, I doubt her motives from pre-series as well. Heck I doubt the motives for any of the super soldiers were good prior to the series even beginning. They really set out to be terrorists from the start because they specifically set out to make themselves super strong in order to get their way by bullying people and destroying things. They sought out the super soldier serum from a bunch of bad guys because their plan was violence from the start.

It would have been different if they weren't super soldiers. Then their motives could be seen as more pure.

[Frontier]

Thing is, I doubt her motives from pre-series as well. Heck I doubt the motives for any of the super soldiers were good prior to the series even beginning. They really set out to be terrorists from the start because they specifically set out to make themselves super strong in order to get their way by bullying people and destroying things. They sought out the super soldier serum from a bunch of bad guys because their plan was violence from the start.

It would have been different if they weren't super soldiers. Then their motives could be seen as more pure.

Didn't they imply they were hired muscle before they got the Super Soldier serum from the Power Broker?