Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[CosmiComic]

I don't know if it's accountability Zemo wants so much as revenge.

Against people unrelated to those responsible for his family's death?

I may not like the messenger but I love the message

It would be nice if a hero delivered that message

[Immortal Weapon]

Looking at the scene, it looks like Howard did a bunch of prototypes and that's where Steve found the shield

These prototype designs were shown in Iron Man 2 when Tony was looking through his dad's stuff. To me, it seems like the shield would belong to Howard.

[godisawesome]

I don't know if it's accountability Zemo wants so much as revenge.

Revenge in the form of an irrational prejudice, specifically. Zemo simply tells himself he has a good reason for it, and excercises some restraint about it to help him maintain that self narrative. And like many prejudices, it’s inherent fallibility is exposed both in where he targets his wrath, and in the fact that it’s clear that simply being around Bucky made him come up with an excuse to eventually remove a person he liked from that prejudice.

[Vic Vega]

I don't know if it's accountability Zemo wants so much as revenge.

Zemo's a sociopath who likely can't tell the difference between the two. And he probably has been like that for years given that he is secret police of an Eastern European country.

On his best day, Zemo probably wasn't all that nice of a guy.

He saw nothing wrong with assassinating T'Chaka and some random European diplomat to further his plans.

And for what,? Causing The Avengers to fracture, he only made Earth that much less able to protect itself from Thanos.

Thanos whose body count was far higher than Ultron's but none of the people that got snapped were in Zemo's immediate family so he didn't care.

An @$$hole with a code is still an @$$hole and his code is gonna reflect that.

[CosmiComic]

Zemo's a sociopath who likely can't tell the difference between the two. And he probably has been like that for years given that he is secret police of an Eastern European country.

On his best day, Zemo probably wasn't all that nice of a guy.

He saw nothing wrong with assassinating T'Chaka and some random European diplomat to further his plans.

And for what,? Causing The Avengers to fracture, he only made Earth that much less able to protect itself from Thanos.

Thanos whose body count was far higher than Ultron's but none of the people that got snapped were in Zemo's immediate family so he didn't care.

An @$$hole with a code is still an @$$hole and his code is gonna reflect that.

When you put that way, he's pretty villainous

[ZeroBG82]

Really? I'm tired of the whole "villains want heroes to be accountable but somehow that's bad" nonsense

Which is a funny thing to say in regards to Zemo, who has absolutely no interest in accountability. Zemo hates those with superpowers. The death of his family has convinced him that those who are superior to normal men and women think themselves gods who can do what they wish and lord it over everyone else. It isn't them not being held accountable that is his issue, he would just as likely kill them AFTER they were sent to the raft as criminals and killers, it is their very existence that troubles him. For Zemo, the dividing line between "us" and "them" is having sought out or gained powers beyond normal men.

It makes his interactions with Sam and Bucky fascinating, as he should loathe both. But he seems to genuinely respect both instead. Which means recognizing that Sam's abilities are entirely from the tech, which theoretically anybody could use, rendering him a normal human in Zemo's eyes. While his attitude towards Bucky seems framed by his awareness of the fact that Barnes had absolutely no choice in either his acquiring powers or how he was forced to wield them as the Winter Soldier. It's an oddly nuanced perspective, particularly for a villain who is almost fanatical in his beliefs.

I've said it before in this thread, and I'm not afraid to say it again. I have tremendous respect for the strength of Zemo's convictions. His actual beliefs are scary and his methods in resolving them are terrifying. But he's a man who will do what he says, say what he means and won't back down. It makes him a dark mirror of Steve Rogers. He has all of Steve's faith in his righteousness and all of Steve's willingness to go to the mat for his beliefs. He's a perfect example of everything that made Steve such a hero, but with the darker of edge of what Zemo actually stands for twisting him into villain, or at the very least anti-hero, territory.

[godisawesome]

When you put that way, he's pretty villainous

He *is* villainous. His humanity doesn’t detract from the fact he led kill squads during Sokovia’s civil war or considered dozens of innocent victims acceptable “collateral damage” in his plan.

And I think he really is looking for a target for his wrath rather than deducing the target for his wrath. Tony was pretty arguably the central figure among the Avengers who’s action indirectly destroyed his family and country, but Zemo didn’t even specifically target Tony, and instead turned his rage on all the Avengers, and once he was denied a chance to commit suicide afterwards, he expanded his wrath to include other enhanced individuals.

I genuinely think his “supermacist” argument with Karli was an accidentally accurate case of him constructing a reason to go after her, and that the reason he didn’t decide to kill Bucky and Sam has more to do with his convictions being more like prejudices that simply get countered if he actually gets along with someone,

A kill-squad leader being able to manage the dissonance “of kill all targets” with “those guys are the ‘good’ ones” makes perfectly horrifying psychological sense. I wouldn’t be surprised if he originally intended or kill Bucky and Sam, but simply decided to change his mind once he was forced to view them as people, and constructed his reasoning not to kill them afterwards.

[CosmiComic]

Which is a funny thing to say in regards to Zemo, who has absolutely no interest in accountability. Zemo hates those with superpowers. The death of his family has convinced him that those who are superior to normal men and women think themselves gods who can do what they wish and lord it over everyone else. It isn't them not being held accountable that is his issue, he would just as likely kill them AFTER they were sent to the raft as criminals and killers, it is their very existence that troubles him. For Zemo, the dividing line between "us" and "them" is having sought out or gained powers beyond normal men.

It makes his interactions with Sam and Bucky fascinating, as he should loathe both. But he seems to genuinely respect both instead. Which means recognizing that Sam's abilities are entirely from the tech, which theoretically anybody could use, rendering him a normal human in Zemo's eyes. While his attitude towards Bucky seems framed by his awareness of the fact that Barnes had absolutely no choice in either his acquiring powers or how he was forced to wield them as the Winter Soldier. It's an oddly nuanced perspective, particularly for a villain who is almost fanatical in his beliefs.

I've said it before in this thread, and I'm not afraid to say it again. I have tremendous respect for the strength of Zemo's convictions. His actual beliefs are scary and his methods in resolving them are terrifying. But he's a man who will do what he says, say what he means and won't back down. It makes him a dark mirror of Steve Rogers. He has all of Steve's faith in his righteousness and all of Steve's willingness to go to the mat for his beliefs. He's a perfect example of everything that made Steve such a hero, but with the darker of edge of what Zemo actually stands for twisting him into villain, or at the very least anti-hero, territory.

The problem is they turned Zemo into an "anti-super" villain like one of those X-villains who hates mutants for "reasons".

He *is* villainous. His humanity doesn’t detract from the fact he led kill squads during Sokovia’s civil war or considered dozens of innocent victims acceptable “collateral damage” in his plan.

And I think he really is looking for a target for his wrath rather than deducing the target for his wrath. Tony was pretty arguably the central figure among the Avengers who’s action indirectly destroyed his family and country, but Zemo didn’t even specifically target Tony, and instead turned his rage on all the Avengers, and once he was denied a chance to commit suicide afterwards, he expanded his wrath to include other enhanced individuals.

I genuinely think his “supermacist” argument with Karli was an accidentally accurate case of him constructing a reason to go after her, and that the reason he didn’t decide to kill Bucky and Sam has more to do with his convictions being more like prejudices that simply get countered if he actually gets along with someone,

A kill-squad leader being able to manage the dissonance “of kill all targets” with “those guys are the ‘good’ ones” makes perfectly horrifying psychological sense. I wouldn’t be surprised if he originally intended or kill Bucky and Sam, but simply decided to change his mind once he was forced to view them as people, and constructed his reasoning not to kill them afterwards.

So basically his dialogue is after the fact justification.

I guess the dancing makes it all worth it though

[The Cool Thatguy]

Zemo's a sociopath who likely can't tell the difference between the two. And he probably has been like that for years given that he is secret police of an Eastern European country.

On his best day, Zemo probably wasn't all that nice of a guy.

He saw nothing wrong with assassinating T'Chaka and some random European diplomat to further his plans.

And for what,? Causing The Avengers to fracture, he only made Earth that much less able to protect itself from Thanos.

Thanos whose body count was far higher than Ultron's but none of the people that got snapped were in Zemo's immediate family so he didn't care.

An @$$hole with a code is still an @$$hole and his code is gonna reflect that.

In fairness, it's not as if Zemo had any idea that Thanos was even out there, let alone his plans.

I do wish they'd addressed that, though. If he has any remorse for what happened, if only indirectly because of him

[Frontier]

How does MCU Zemo compare to comic book Zemo?

I admit, I miss the daddy issues that comic book Zemo had but those aspects would have been difficult to adapt to live action but I think removing the Nazi element from the character made him much more compelling on screen. Plus, I love the fact that movie Zemo has had a 99% success rate.

He could still have daddy issues. His heritage and family seem very important to him.

In fairness, it's not as if Zemo had any idea that Thanos was even out there, let alone his plans.

I do wish they'd addressed that, though. If he has any remorse for what happened, if only indirectly because of him

He would probably appreciate that Thanos also took most of the Superheroes with him.

Honestly I'm expecting the next big "break" for Zemo in the MCU will be when the Avengers inevitably reform.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

In fairness, it's not as if Zemo had any idea that Thanos was even out there, let alone his plans.

I do wish they'd addressed that, though. If he has any remorse for what happened, if only indirectly because of him

I'm kinda curious if he got snapped or not.

https://www.deviantart.com/needham-c...Idea-799813131

This would've been a cool idea for the Blip.

[Tofali]

It would be nice if a hero delivered that message

It is full proof coming from a villain because A hero would actually be hated by the fans of the character that the critique is directed.

[CosmiComic]

It is full proof coming from a villain because A hero would actually be hated by the fans of the character that the critique is directed.

I don't quite follow you, but I think you're saying a hero would be hated if s/he criticized another hero for that, right?

[Tofali]

I don't quite follow you, but I think you're saying a hero would be hated if s/he criticized another hero for that, right?

Yep. fanbases are another form of tribalism so i don't see Marvel pitting one heroic character's ideology against another and be hated unless that is their intention.

[CosmiComic]

Yep. fanbases are another form of tribalism so i don't see Marvel pitting one heroic character's ideology against another and be hated unless that is their intention.

I see, but didn't Civil War already do that?

My main point is, instead of villains holding heroes accountable, couldn't heroes hold villains accountable?