Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[Dboi2001]

@Adam Allen

But sure here is more criticism to the show

First off is the dialogue of the show. Everything is terrible especially when the show tries to be smart like talking about the shield. It always comes off as clunky and out of character to the point where I can barely tell who is talking exactly

Second the characters. Like I said only Zemo ended up better than before. Sam Wilson is ironically enough reduced in this show to just being ‘the black guy’ and ignores everything about the character. It forgets he fought for the army, is viewed as a hero even after breaking the law twice and helped veterans with ptsd. In the show him being in the army is pushed aside considering I would think he has some pride in his country since he risked his life in service but he never seriously contests Isaiah and even lets his words get to him. Same goes for the next point of him considering Isaiah claims people wouldn’t accept a black Captain America and that no black person would want to be (even though Rhodey had no issue with iron patriot). Lastly you’d think he be more empathic toward Bucky which would’ve given him a real arc in the show

Finally the message is completely muddle. Sam insists on not using labels on people who are obviously terrorists. His argument is also we should consider why terrorists do what they do and should just give into what they want. There is no way around it that’s what his speech was. Did he do that when he served the military? The show also inadvertently makes Sam ignorant by acting like the shield’s legacy never had any bad history. Obviously the shield is suppose to represent America as a whole and so Sam obviously understands racism. On top of that the show also pretends Hulk wasn’t a product of captain America yet banner never hated him nor did anyone blame captain America and say his legacy is complicated because of the hulk. Again something else the show could’ve explored but didn’t

tl;dr every character sucks, the dialogue sucks and it just wastes tons of potential while ignoring ten plus years of movie continuity

Edit: another thing is telling but not showing. It tells us Karli’s life was better during the same and the GRC are corrupt bureaucrats who are hurting refugees and innocent people but it never shows any of this

[AnakinFlair]

Just because people criticized some elements doesn’t mean they aren’t praising the show. The Flagsmasher are instrumental to the shows message and theme but people brush it off as “oh well another mediocre mcu villain”. The problem is movies like ant man or GotG can get away with mediocre villains because they have very little screen time and don’t play a huge thematic part of the movie. In TFATWS the show falls apart. On top of that everyone acts out of character. At most I see the show general praise the attempt at social commentary rather than the actual message which is very flawed and goes against everything established about Sam Wilson. Never once in the mcu has Sam made a deal about being black but now it is important to him. Sam also never addresses a serious question and just says ‘do better’. Why didn’t sam do better too in winter soldier too? That’s unreasonable and not a real answer. Honestly Sam is just a jerk in this show to Steve Rodgers and his legacy

Also whenever I do criticize the show numerous people have said to me “what did I expect out of a marvel show?” I expected what the show was trying to sell me on

But sure just because I have a different opinion means I have no credibility. I have as much credibility as you

Okay, I agree with some of what you are saying. The Flag Smashers feel half-baked, and in hindsight really feel like they were the victim of a panicked re-write that totally changed what they were doing, but didn't give any real details. But in regards to Sam making a deal about being black in the MCU- exactly when would he have ever had the time? He's always had a small supporting role in the movies he's appeared in, and the only one we got any real details on his personal life was in Winter Soldier, which showed him working at the VA. They've never taken the time to deal those issues in the movies, because there hasn't BEEN the time.

[Killerbee911]

Just because people criticized some elements doesn’t mean they aren’t praising the show.

Your argument was that people will instantly like the show and be biased because it was Marvel and the reviews and articles show that is clearly not the case.

But sure just because I have a different opinion means I have no credibility. I have as much credibility as you

You have no credibility because you express an opinion that everyone knows is nowhere factual. You basically walk in and said 1+1=5 and everyone knows 1+1=2. Had you just criticize the show, You would find that some people agree with your criticism. But your "thesis statement" was something so wildly off base that it makes listening to your pov pointless. No, you don't have as much credibility as me you lost that when you said "This show is worse or in the same caliber as Inhumans". Right now You are the guy who thinks Falcon and Winter Soldier is as bad as the Inhumans. You are not going to find ONE person or outlet who has reviewed Inhumans and FaWS who has Inhumans higher. They are such things as "bad opinions"

[DrNewGod]

The flagsmashers were young and dumb I wish it was headed by an older and charismatic person who could articulate their anti-national movement better.

True, but movements (for good or bad) begin with the people they've got, not the icons they'd like. Made it feel a little more genuine to me.

[DrNewGod]

Err, did you mean to reply to me?

In agreement with you, not in contention with you. Should have included the other quote too.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I liked the show but thought the resolutions with the antagonists were weak. I think they made Zemo and Walker too sympathetic. The Flag Smashers needed a flashback to the Blip. I didn't care about the Power Broker being Sharon but I thought that was the hook for season 2 so I let that slide.

Bucky did have an arc but it was just his stuff with Yuri. The list is cool and I wish they did more with it. Maybe have one of the Flag smashers be connected to a name on the list? But I thought he was fine. Sebastian Stan gave him an awkward intensity that made him a fun character. Him breaking Zemo out was a step too far for me. Plus I'm surprised they made him a patriot for his country. But I guess he's more loyal to Steve's legacy than the country itself.

I don't mind how Sam is portrayed outside of him not doing a go-fund me campaign to save his parents boat. He's practically a celebrity and he should cash in on it. But I guess Sam is too humble.

I don't mind Sam's interactions with Isaiah. But it was a missed opportunity not to have Luke Cage pop up. Isaiah would dismiss Sam's own imprisonment and the Hulk but he can't overlook Luke. Hell Luke is the modern day version of Isaiah.

[Pinsir]

https://www.ign.com/articles/the-fal...aptain-america

I thought it was an interesting writeup on some of the show's misstep.

The criticisms brought here and against other MCU films reminds me of Legend of Korra. That show had the villains be personified as political ideologies and received criticism for not understanding those and for portraying them as wrong because they were 'to extreme.'

[PCN24454]

In hindsight, I think the reason it was easy to sympathize with Walker was because he was Tom from Tom & Jerry. It's hard to say that Jerry is the underdog when he apparently wins in every encounter that he has with Tom, and Tom's injuries are always the most grievous of the two. Sometimes, Tom is a villain, and sometimes, Tom is just doing his job to stop Jerry from stealing.

The fact that Walker was set up as the inferior Captain America can be somewhat cruel in a metasense even though he really doesn't deserve the prestige.

[Dboi2001]

Your argument was that people will instantly like the show and be biased because it was Marvel and the reviews and articles show that is clearly not the case.



You have no credibility because you express an opinion that everyone knows is nowhere factual. You basically walk in and said 1+1=5 and everyone knows 1+1=2. Had you just criticize the show, You would find that some people agree with your criticism. But your "thesis statement" was something so wildly off base that it makes listening to your pov pointless. No, you don't have as much credibility as me you lost that when you said "This show is worse or in the same caliber as Inhumans". Right now You are the guy who thinks Falcon and Winter Soldier is as bad as the Inhumans. You are not going to find ONE person or outlet who has reviewed Inhumans and FaWS who has Inhumans higher. They are such things as "bad opinions"

The only reason people find TFATWS better than Inhumans is because of the budget. Like people trash early seasons of agents of shield for shoddy effects despite being a decent show. Honestly if Inhumans had a decent budget and you kept the story the same people would’ve given it a slide imo because that’s most marvel movies focusing more on spectacle than story like Ant Man or Ragnarok. It’s not always a bad thing though

[Nate Grey]

In hindsight, I think the reason it was easy to sympathize with Walker was because he was Tom from Tom & Jerry. It's hard to say that Jerry is the underdog when he apparently wins in every encounter that he has with Tom, and Tom's injuries are always the most grievous of the two. Sometimes, Tom is a villain, and sometimes, Tom is just doing his job to stop Jerry from stealing.

The fact that Walker was set up as the inferior Captain America can be somewhat cruel in a metasense even though he really doesn't deserve the prestige.

That's a good analogy. Walker is Tom from Tom & Jerry.

[Dboi2001]

Okay, I agree with some of what you are saying. The Flag Smashers feel half-baked, and in hindsight really feel like they were the victim of a panicked re-write that totally changed what they were doing, but didn't give any real details. But in regards to Sam making a deal about being black in the MCU- exactly when would he have ever had the time? He's always had a small supporting role in the movies he's appeared in, and the only one we got any real details on his personal life was in Winter Soldier, which showed him working at the VA. They've never taken the time to deal those issues in the movies, because there hasn't BEEN the time.

I get what you’re saying but you can’t just introduce a completely new element of a character out of left field with no previous buildup. It’s no different than the reveal Palpatine had a son in TROS

[green_garnish]

The only reason people find TFATWS better than Inhumans is because of the budget. Like people trash early seasons of agents of shield for shoddy effects despite being a decent show. Honestly if Inhumans had a decent budget and you kept the story the same people would’ve given it a slide imo because that’s most marvel movies focusing more on spectacle than story like Ant Man or Ragnarok. It’s not always a bad thing though

This is an amazing assertion on so many levels. How does your brain even get to such complex levels?

[Castle]

The only reason people find TFATWS better than Inhumans is because of the budget. Like people trash early seasons of agents of shield for shoddy effects despite being a decent show. Honestly if Inhumans had a decent budget and you kept the story the same people would’ve given it a slide imo because that’s most marvel movies focusing more on spectacle than story like Ant Man or Ragnarok. It’s not always a bad thing though

With Inhumans, TFATWS and Agents of SHIELD, I think the reason they all differ in budget or even studio dedication is because ABC is not Disney Plus, though both owned by the Walt Disney company. Honestly I don't think everything is about budget when it comes to why a show is bad or good or better than the other, I feel there is a way you can make a show that you can tell does not cost game of thrones money but still give it a very high ''artistic quality''. FX Legion is a very good example of this. Inhumans was just a bad project for ABC/Marvel, I almost felt sorry Anson Mount but am happy he has found good recognition on Star Trek.

[80sbaby]

I get what you’re saying but you can’t just introduce a completely new element of a character out of left field with no previous buildup. It’s no different than the reveal Palpatine had a son in TROS

It's not anything like the Palpatine reveal. It's not a huge leap in logic that a black man in America would care about racial issues. There doesn't need to be build up to that, especially since it doesn't contradict anything. It's not as if Sam was against any discussions of race previously.

[CosmiComic]

It's not anything like the Palpatine reveal. It's not a huge leap in logic that a black man in America would care about racial issues. There doesn't need to be build up to that, especially since it doesn't contradict anything. It's not as if Sam was against any discussions of race previously.

Yeah, I don't even get the comparison.