Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[Immortal Weapon]

But they suck. At least use a lame villain we might see from time to time, instead of a nobody like Darren Cross.

That's what did they with Batroc. I'm hoping Karli survives so can become a recurring minor foe.

[Immortal Weapon]

Isaiah’s retaining his cognizance unlike in the source material and bring a known actor for the role implies to me he might accompany Eli into a potential Young Avengers show and have the more familial nature of any pot airs conflict there emphasized.

I don't feel like that's why this actor got cast for the part. They needed someone who can make a big impact with the small amount of screen time they'll be given. Carl Lumbly can do that.

[CosmiComic]

That's what did they with Batroc. I'm hoping Karli survives so can become a recurring minor foe.

I guess so

[TooFlyToFail]

Cold blooded murder? Pretty sure that makes you a villain. And I'll apply that to the far more sympathetic Karli just the same as Walker. Lines were crossed. Sympathetic or not, they are both villains now.

And the Dora weren't trying to murder Walker, so kindly stop with that. If they wanted him dead he would be dead, they dominated that fight. He stood between them and Zemo, so they removed him from that path. Hell, they didn't even hurt him when they did it. At least physically. His emotional shattering speaks for itself, but is largely his own doing.

Dude, that murder isn't what villain makes. Not when the guy he murdered, literally held him down to get executed not 5 minutes earlier. It's wrong, yes, but that doesn't make him a villain. It wasn't cold-blooded either, as the person he killed was complicit in the killing of his best friend.

They threw their spear at his head before even revealing themselves, then attacked him unprovoked and the went for multiple lethal strikes during the fight. Stop handwaving that nonsense, just because you like them.

[green_garnish]

Dude, that murder isn't what villain makes. Not when the guy he murdered, literally held him down to get executed not 5 minutes earlier. It's wrong, yes, but that doesn't make him a villain. It wasn't cold-blooded either, as the person he killed was complicit in the killing of his best friend.

They threw their spear at his head before even revealing themselves, then attacked him unprovoked and the went for multiple lethal strikes during the fight. Stop handwaving that nonsense, just because you like them.

So it's premeditated, not cold blooded. That makes it better. Totally not villainous.

[TooFlyToFail]

That’s more accurate to what my opinion of him is - he’s clearly too flawed for the role of Captain America, has some sympathetic characteristics, is a brutal murderer, had objectively honorable goals, and is deep in denial about his actions to the point of being at least mildly delusional.

He’s a genuinely human antagonist, who’s eventual fate is going to come down to what choices he makes in the finale.

Like characters like Loki or Kylo Ren, the performance is strong enough that people can be inclined to give him sympathy.

Unlike Kylo Ren entirely, and better than Loki in spite of his success as a character, there is a substance to why he might gain sympathy.

But also like Loki, and unlike Kylo Ren in TLJ and TROS, the performance and writing are making John Walker a great antagonist and villain for at least a little while longer.

Yeah, I agree. Tho, I'd take out the word villain. He's more antagonist/anti-hero.

[TooFlyToFail]

So it's premeditated, not cold blooded. That makes it better. Totally not villainous.

It's not. Not when they tracked him down to murder him, while he was trying to arrest them. They escalated it to this point.

I'm not saying it was right. It wasn't. I just don't consider him a villain for killing someone willing to kill civilians for simply existing. Oh and the guy that held him down for execution. That's anti-hero territory.

[Adam Allen]

I feel like I should think Karli and the Flag-Smashers are more sympathetic, but for some reason I just feel more apathetic to them as the show goes on. I don't really know why.

It's because the show hasn't really given us any clear understanding of the motivation behind their doing what they are doing.

Apparently the GRC are bad, but how, exactly? Something vague about camps and displacing refugees? But how is GRC doing that, exactly? I mean, if you have people who moved into the US (or whatever country) during the blip ... sure, I guess there would be chaos and overcrowding, when the other half of the population pops back into existence. But what does the US (and other countries') government do about it? GRC ... somehow ... gets involved, and in some not-at-all-explained way are not on the up and up about it? But the show hasn't really shown us how they are like Hydra or Nazi evil or something, so it's kind of hard to get sympathize with why the Flag Smashers should feel justified to resort to terrorist methods to combat them.

I mean, we saw Karli blow up that warehouse or whatever, and kill the tied up guards with it. Have we seen GRC kill anybody?

Even, really -- how are the Flag Smashers really helping any of the many people we've been told they are helping? By ... stealing supplies from GRC warehouses, and distributing them to people living in GRC refugee camps? What??

I mean, they're unfortunately just a group of characters with only the most vaguely defined motivations, so of course it's hard to sympathize with them. Even what they have suffered ... what have they suffered, exactly? We haven't really been showed even that, I don't think.

[green_garnish]

Yeah, I agree. Tho, I'd take out the word villain. He's more antagonist/anti-hero.

How did "opposite of hero" ever come to mean not a villain?

[Immortal Weapon]

Dude, that murder isn't what villain makes. Not when the guy he murdered, literally held him down to get executed not 5 minutes earlier. It's wrong, yes, but that doesn't make him a villain. It wasn't cold-blooded either, as the person he killed was complicit in the killing of his best friend.

They threw their spear at his head before even revealing themselves, then attacked him unprovoked and the went for multiple lethal strikes during the fight. Stop handwaving that nonsense, just because you like them.

I wouldn't say it was unprovoked. He tried to force his authority and even put his hands on one of them. He should have left them alone.

[ZeroBG82]

They threw their spear at his head before even revealing themselves, then attacked him unprovoked and the went for multiple lethal strikes during the fight. Stop handwaving that nonsense, just because you like them.

The hottest of takes. Not once did they go for a lethal blow. If the initial spear throw had been intended to be lethal, it would have been. It was designed to surprise and to put them off balance. We're talking about some of the most skilled warriors in the MCU, if they had wanted to kill anybody in that room, they had ample opportunity. Hell, if they wanted Walker dead, why did they leave him alive after he was disarmed and beaten? (Hmm, you know, like he had the Flag-Smasher just a little bit later? Gee, I wonder if the show was drawing a comparison there?) They even left him the shield, for heaven's sake! But to your mind this is a group of people that has tried to kill him? Guess they really suck at achieving their goals.

Yes, the Dora attacked without provocation. That's kind of their MO, they don't much care about anybody's business but their own. That's not to excuse their attitude, but to understand it. Not much fun when somebody with a bigger stick shows up and simply tells you how things are going to be, is it? They are a deliberate inversion of the racial and national roles that people are used to. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, ask yourself why that is?

[TooFlyToFail]

I wouldn't say it was unprovoked. He tried to force his authority and even put his hands on one of them. He should have left them alone.

It was a friendly gesture, as well extremely arrogant. I'd expect a negative response, but that doesn't warrant an assault. Also, legally, he's was in the right to also try to arrest Zemo. That also doesn't warrant a spear to the head.

[TooFlyToFail]

The hottest of takes. Not once did they go for a lethal blow. If the initial spear throw had been intended to be lethal, it would have been. It was designed to surprise and to put them off balance. We're talking about some of the most skilled warriors in the MCU, if they had wanted to kill anybody in that room, they had ample opportunity. Hell, if they wanted Walker dead, why did they leave him alive after he was disarmed and beaten? (Hmm, you know, like he had the Flag-Smasher just a little bit later? Gee, I wonder if the show was drawing a comparison there?) They even left him the shield, for heaven's sake! But to your mind this is a group of people that has tried to kill him? Guess they really suck at achieving their goals.

Yes, the Dora attacked without provocation. That's kind of their MO, they don't much care about anybody's business but their own. That's not to excuse their attitude, but to understand it. Not much fun when somebody with a bigger stick shows up and simply tells you how things are going to be, is it? They are a deliberate inversion of the racial and national roles that people are used to. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, ask yourself why that is?

I'm black, so it's not what you're trying to assume on me. I'm just calling it like it is. If Walker acted like they did, you'd never try to justify. Especially since you think me having an issue with it, might mean that I was white.

The scene was poorly written. Multiple stab towards his chest were blocked. Everyone in that room, besides Sam and Lemar, were jerks. I'm just honest about it.

[TooFlyToFail]

How did "opposite of hero" ever come to mean not a villain?

Because there's grey area? Please look up the definition for anti-hero and anti-villain.

[green_garnish]

Because there's grey area? Please look up the definition for anti-hero and anti-villain.

I have looked up the definition of "anti" and "hero" and "villain". There's no gray area here.