Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[CosmiComic]

I think he's unstable and it'll probably come down to Sam and Bucky to deal with him somehow.

The thing is he hasn't calmed down yet. Especially when he's making his own shield so he can go out and kill Flag-Smashers.

That's true. Idk what'll happen tbh

[CosmiComic]

When a cop busts a murderer and he breaks out of jail, I imagine the cop is very stressed about the safety of his family.

When a superhero busts a supervillain that no ordinary force could defeat, and the heroe's identity is known. I dunno, just seems like a storyline you can never get away from and would grow old really fast.

It's different in the movies when you can actually have the villains die.

Hasn't Marvel dropped most secret IDs for at least a decade now? I don't see how that gets old fast when the alternative has been around for 80 years

Plus, it's one thing to save Earth from galactic invasion. It's another to beat up random criminals on the street.

[green_garnish]

Hasn't Marvel dropped most secret IDs for at least a decade now? I don't see how that gets old fast when the alternative has been around for 80 years

Plus, it's one thing to save Earth from galactic invasion. It's another to beat up random criminals on the street.

I don't follow the comics anymore so I can't really comment on that. If true, I'm sorry for comics readers.

There are Cosmic threats and street level threats. Do we really want to devote issues of Daredevil to whether he had the jurisdiction to punch the Masked Marauder and whether the villains rights were violated as a consequence... with each and every story line?

[DrNewGod]

Well, some authorities probably also don't want them beating up whomever they choose...

No, the authorities want them beating up whoever The Authorities choose to beat up.

In the US Army, it's a classic dilemma: officers are sworn to obey any legal order, are expected to discern legality of orders, but are not recognized as authorities on the legality of orders.

So: refuse illegal orders, long as it's not inconvenient.

Superheroes, starting from Robin Hood to The Shadow, thrived because The Authorities couldn't be trusted. S&S' 1938 Superman was 💯 antiestablishment.

[CosmiComic]

I don't follow the comics anymore so I can't really comment on that. If true, I'm sorry for comics readers.

There are Cosmic threats and street level threats. Do we really want to devote issues of Daredevil to whether he had the jurisdiction to punch the Masked Marauder and whether the villains rights were violated as a consequence... with each and every story line?

Maybe I do. Maybe I'd even like to see a hero fighting for people's civil rights

[CosmiComic]

No, the authorities want them beating up whoever The Authorities choose to beat up.

In the US Army, it's a classic dilemma: officers are sworn to obey any legal order, are expected to discern legality of orders, but are not recognized as authorities on the legality of orders.

So: refuse illegal orders, long as it's not inconvenient.

Superheroes, starting from Robin Hood to The Shadow, thrived because The Authorities couldn't be trusted. S&S' 1938 Superman was �� antiestablishment.

Ok, just because the government is wrong to tell heroes to beat whomever the government wants, doesn't it means it's wrong for them to tell heroes not to beat up whomever the heroes want to

[silvercover]

I dont this has been really talked about much but I do believe all the flag smashers die by the end, with only Karli maybe living in the end. their concept and reasons is probably gonna be finished and having 6 SSS powered individuals available will cause complications to the MCU as they are going to be quite valuable for good or bad guys. if they get caught the govt is sure to either enlist them into their force or conduct a lot of experiments to replicate the SSS, and them being SSS means they need a very secure facility to hold them so they'd be sent to the Raft which if Thunderbolts really will happen then they have 6 SSS right into their lineup. if they somehow don't get caught and on the run, it would really undermine Sam and Bucky's reputation, they would also be a constant threat that way since in that scenario that assumes Sam doesn't manage to convince them to give up for their crimes and they should be constantly trying to attack the govt, and in the scenario that Sam does make them change their but doesn't arrest them, it makes Sam look like a pushover and naive hero.

[godisawesome]

Ok, just because the government is wrong to tell heroes to beat whomever the government wants, doesn't it means it's wrong for them to tell heroes not to beat up whomever the heroes want to

It’s basically Marvel’s anti-authority streak writ large causing the issue here. While most superhero comics are anti-authorities by their very nature, Marvel is even more so, and the MCU has often gone out of its way to “justify” that within itself.

Civil War arguably got a lot of slack on Cap’s side of the argument simply because in the MCU, it was a fact that Hydra had infiltrated the US government and Shield to such an extent the two were almost inseparable, and because Ross as the Sokovian Accords’s enforcer pretty much immediately led to him applying them as idiotically as possible, while Tony was in a somewhat hypocritical light because he was the guy who’d designed Ultron.

But as a purely philosophical and ethical standpoint, it *is* effectively untenable unless you’re a perfect person (which MCU Rogers is the closest to being), and in the real world it’s an unacceptable standpoint.

On a different note...

Anyone want to guess what Val’s card will turn out to have on to when it gets revealed in the last episode? HAMMER? Thunderbolts? Hydra? SHIELD? (Dark) Aevngers?

I feel like HAMMER would be the most intriguing option.

[CosmiComic]

It’s basically Marvel’s anti-authority streak writ large causing the issue here. While most superhero comics are anti-authorities by their very nature, Marvel is even more so, and the MCU has often gone out of its way to “justify” that within itself.

Civil War arguably got a lot of slack on Cap’s side of the argument simply because in the MCU, it was a fact that Hydra had infiltrated the US government and Shield to such an extent the two were almost inseparable, and because Ross as the Sokovian Accords’s enforcer pretty much immediately led to him applying them as idiotically as possible, while Tony was in a somewhat hypocritical light because he was the guy who’d designed Ultron.

But as a purely philosophical and ethical standpoint, it *is* effectively untenable unless you’re a perfect person (which MCU Rogers is the closest to being), and in the real world it’s an unacceptable standpoint.

On a different note...

Anyone want to guess what Val’s card will turn out to have on to when it gets revealed in the last episode? HAMMER? Thunderbolts? Hydra? SHIELD? (Dark) Aevngers?

I feel like HAMMER would be the most intriguing option.

I can understand why they'd be anti-authority, but when they go around enforcing the same rules, they become the authority in a way. My problem is Marvel always builds up the registration side as some kind of evil, rather than calling out superheroes for acting like they're above the law.

Idk who she'll be from, tbh

[TooFlyToFail]

Aside from how much I hate the "good guy lets the bad guy live then gets to kill them anyway because the bad guy tries to shoot the good guy in the back" cliche, there's no way they'd do that as a way to validate Walker in any way. You may be rooting for him, but I don't think this show is letting him get a win here, or be the "good guy who gets his hands dirty", where he saves Sam's life, thereby neutering the hero of the show and kills the bad guy who's about to commit murder, thereby justifying his actions? (it's like how The Punisher is always shown as right in his fights against DD, but only in his own title, from his POV - everywhere else, he's a mass murdering psycho) That's way too good for him and would come across as totally against the whole point of the show. It's the "righteous, lethal rule-breaker" attitude that's lead to police feeling justified doing anything they want. If John's worthy of even working his way back up to grey, it'll be awhile. That's my feeling based on the ground work this show has laid out and what seems to me to be the story Marvel wants to tell.

What do you mean work back into the grey? He is in the grey. He's done nothing to make him evil or a villain. He murdered a surrendering guy, yes, but that same guy nearly held him down for execution. He wasn't innocent. So he's, thus far, in the grey. He's done wrong, but nothing irredeemable.

Now it's whether he stays in the grey, shifts closer to the light, or goes down the villain path. He's in limbo, as far as his morals. Mainly because his targets are still mass murdering terrorists. If he was hunting Sam, for the shield or revenge, you'd have a point.

[godisawesome]

What do you mean work back into the grey? He is in the grey. He's done nothing to make him evil or a villain. He murdered a surrendering guy, yes, but that same guy nearly held him down for execution. He wasn't innocent. So he's, thus far, in the grey. He's done wrong, but nothing irredeemable.

He murdered a man while acting under the aegis of the Captain America identity and government commission. His actions were unethical, criminal, and damaging to his mission, both in cutting off a potential information source and for damaging the legal objective of his commission. That’s indefensible. It may be forgivable, but it’s not defensible.

But compounding the issue (for us especially as the audience) is that he then attempted to avoid the repercussions of his actions by hiding behind the authority and honor of the Captain America identity. He’s mentally and emotionally unwell after Lemar’s death, that much is true, but that does not cover his actions when confronted by Bucky and Sam both trying to non-lethally detain him and disarm him, at which point he tried to kill at least Sam. He is unwilling to face the music for his actions without protesting as well, and is lying to Lemar’s family about Lemar’s death, and is most likely to escalate further into unauthorized vigilante action while still wearing his Cap suit.

I can see an argument for him as a “morally grey” anti-hero/anti-villain minus the Cap suit and authority... but he’s not as morally ambiguous with the Cap suit and inferred authority. That changes the standard by which he is judged. And since he was fighting to kill as a and Bucky, he’s a villain. A human one who can atone, but a villain.

He has to take an L in some way compared to Sam and get humbled here to get back to anti-hero.

[TooFlyToFail]

He murdered a man while acting under the aegis of the Captain America identity and government commission. His actions were unethical, criminal, and damaging to his mission, both in cutting off a potential information source and for damaging the legal objective of his commission. That’s indefensible. It may be forgivable, but it’s not defensible.

But compounding the issue (for us especially as the audience) is that he then attempted to avoid the repercussions of his actions by hiding behind the authority and honor of the Captain America identity. He’s mentally and emotionally unwell after Lemar’s death, that much is true, but that does not cover his actions when confronted by Bucky and Sam both trying to non-lethally detain him and disarm him, at which point he tried to kill at least Sam. He is unwilling to face the music for his actions without protesting as well, and is lying to Lemar’s family about Lemar’s death, and is most likely to escalate further into unauthorized vigilante action while still wearing his Cap suit.

I can see an argument for him as a “morally grey” anti-hero/anti-villain minus the Cap suit and authority... but he’s not as morally ambiguous with the Cap suit and inferred authority. That changes the standard by which he is judged. And since he was fighting to kill as a and Bucky, he’s a villain. A human one who can atone, but a villain.

He has to take an L in some way compared to Sam and get humbled here to get back to anti-hero.

He did take an L and got humbled. He lost the shield, lost his rank, lost his veteran status, and he lost his best friend.

He's in the anti-villain/hero area until he starts hunting heroes and/or killing innocents/civilians. Him killing Nico is ethically wrong, but it doesn't put him into villain status as they were hunting him to murder him.

The worst thing he did was viciously attack Sam and Bucky,vfor doing what he did as Captain America. I'll give you that much.

I need him to be detrimental to saving innocents, because even if his methods aren't virtuous he's not doing villainous things for the sake of it nor harming innocents. His targets are still far worse than him and actually villainous.

[inisideguy]

He did take an L and got humbled. He lost the shield, lost his rank, lost his veteran status, and he lost his best friend.

He's in the anti-villain/hero area until he starts hunting heroes and/or killing innocents/civilians. Him killing Nico is ethically wrong, but it doesn't put him into villain status as they were hunting him to murder him.

The worst thing he did was viciously attack Sam and Bucky,vfor doing what he did as Captain America. I'll give you that much.

I need him to be detrimental to saving innocents, because even if his methods aren't virtuous he's not doing villainous things for the sake of it nor harming innocents. His targets are still far worse than him and actually villainous.

I can see him at this point being a mentally damaged anti-hero. But its razor thin at this point. Him being recruited by Elaine, for lord knows what, and if he attacks Sam or Bucky again and tries to kill them I don't think there really is anything redeemable if this occurs. Not saying this is where its going to go. But if he crosses this line again he is a lost cause.

[Killerbee911]

The worst thing he did was viciously attack Sam and Bucky,vfor doing what he did as Captain America. I'll give you that much.

He tried to kill Sam the way as Nico with Shield. He isn't this antihero you are selling. He cross the line with murdering Nico and then confirmed by trying kill Sam. We have every indication that he would try to kill again Sam if Sam try stop him from killing the Flag smashers. We have every indication that he would kill surrendering Flag smashers again.

How you do things matter whether you want to believe it or not

[Agent Z]

I don't follow the comics anymore so I can't really comment on that. If true, I'm sorry for comics readers.

There are Cosmic threats and street level threats. Do we really want to devote issues of Daredevil to whether he had the jurisdiction to punch the Masked Marauder and whether the villains rights were violated as a consequence... with each and every story line?

Daredevil's identity is still secret.