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  1. #1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I can see that. But Tony still seemed willing to talk about it. Steve acted self-righteous the whole time.
    No, Tony would say anything to get Steve to sign to Accords and assuage his own guilt. He wasn't coming from an altruistic place at all.

  2. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    No, Tony would say anything to get Steve to sign to Accords and assuage his own guilt. He wasn't coming from an altruistic place at all.
    Well, I don't think Tony was coming from 100% honesty, but he also showed he wasn't just going to play along with the Accords. Still, it doesn't mean Steve couldn't listen. And in the end he was proven wrong anyway because Zemo tricked him. The intel was faulty, but Steve and co. thought they could go wherever and do whatever they wanted

    And if not being a government stooge is so important to Sam, why'd he become that in FaWS?

  3. #1413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I can see that. But Tony still seemed willing to talk about it. Steve acted self-righteous the whole time.
    Steve was ready to sign, but than Tony said that they had Wanda in custody oh sorry I forgot he called it house arrest. And for what? she tried to save people but the bomb was too strong. It was not like she threw it around carelessly. For other people that would fall under a "good samaritian" law.

    Both sides were both right and wrong and made mistakes. And I am not a fan of that kind of stories, but at least it was a lot better than the comic.

  4. #1414
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    [edit] Nevermind. Moot point...

  5. #1415
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    Steve was ready to sign, but than Tony said that they had Wanda in custody oh sorry I forgot he called it house arrest. And for what? she tried to save people but the bomb was too strong. It was not like she threw it around carelessly. For other people that would fall under a "good samaritian" law.

    Both sides were both right and wrong and made mistakes. And I am not a fan of that kind of stories, but at least it was a lot better than the comic.
    I didn't think it should've been considered Wanda's fault, although I think it was T'Chaka who pointed out she wasn't trained enough to be there in the first place. Admittedly the plot suffered from needing to make heroes fight each other, even though the Bucky plot already had that

  6. #1416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    But Steve barely even bothered to discuss it. He was stubborn and obstinate about the whole business despite being all about saving everyone in the previous movie. He didn't even entertain the idea of some kind of compromise.
    Didn't he though? He didn't sign. But he didn't judge anybody else for signing, or hold it against them after they did. He LET EACH OF THEM MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE. His argument was about agency, and he made no effort to take anybody else's from them.

    The only time he expressed disappointment or frustration with any of them was Tony, and then only after he interned Wanda. And yes, that is exactly what he did. She wasn't charged with anything for South Africa or Lagos, she hadn't yet superheroed without authorization. She was being detained solely because the nature of her existence made her suspect to authorities. Steve should be judging Tony for that, quite frankly.

    Steve NEVER fought the Accords directly prior to Zemo's escape after he reactivated Bucky as the Winter Soldier. He ignored them, yes. But also showed he was prepared to face the consequences for doing what he thought was right even when he violated them. It wasn't until Germany, when Tony actively (though unwittingly) tried to stop him from interfering in Zemo's plan, which at the time Steve believed was world threatening, that Steve took up arms against the legally sponsored team. And that was after Tony made clear that signing the Accords was not just surrendering their agency, but also their very freedom if some nameles panel decided, even without cause or evidence, that they were a threat. As they did to Wanda.

    Steve was uncompromising in his beliefs, absolutely. And not necessarily in the right, clearly. But I'd hope the rest of us would have the courage to remain true to our convictions in his place.
    Last edited by ZeroBG82; 04-22-2021 at 01:13 PM.

  7. #1417
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Didn't he though? He didn't sign. But he didn't judge anybody else for signing, or hold it against them after they did. He LET EACH OF THEM MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE. His argument was about agency, and he made no effort to take anybody else's from them.

    The only time he expressed disappointment or frustration with any of them was Tony, and then only after he interned Wanda. And yes, that is exactly what he did. She wasn't charged with anything for South Africa or Lagos, she hadn't yet superheroed without authorization. She was being detained solely because the nature of her existence made her suspect to authorities. Steve should be judging Tony for that, quite frankly.

    Steve NEVER fought the Accords directly prior to Zemo's escape after he reactivated Bucky as the Winter Soldier. He ignored them, yes. But also showed he was prepared to face the consequences for doing what he thought was right even when he violated them. It wasn't until Germany, when Tony actively (though unwittingly) tried to stop him from interfering in Zemo's plan, which at the time Steve believed was world threatening, that Steve took up arms against the legally sponsored team. And that was after Tony made clear that signing the Accords was not just surrendering their Agency, but also their very freedom if some nameles panel decided, even without cause or evidence, that they were a threat. As they did to Wanda.

    Steve was uncompromising in his beliefs, absolutely. And not necessarily in the right, clearly. But I'd hope the rest of us would have the courage to remain true to our convictions in his place.
    I can see that. But Steve came out looking like his beliefs were wrong when Zemo revealed his plan. Had Zemo been trying to reactivate Hydra, I probably would've been on Steve's side.

    Steve made a big deal about his and others' freedom when Wanda or Bucky was under threat, yet never stopped to think a group of insufficiently controlled heroes might be a threat to others' freedoms and rights. I trust Steve to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean every hero will, as evidenced by FaWS

  8. #1418
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Not really; just Cap 2.
    Nope. Going through Ross' bitch-list:
    • Marvel's The Avengers: The SSR and later a Hydra-infested SHIELD started tampering with the Tesseract back in 1945, and they were the ones that lost it to Loki, enabling him to open Thanos' can of whupass on NYC.
    • Captain America: The Winter Soldier: It was bringing down Hydra-infested SHIELD's death-carriers that required making the mess.
    • Captain America: Civil War: The damage to the Wakandan Embassy in Lagos was caused by Hydra-mole/SHIELD agent Crossbones' suicide bomb; it was going to kill a lot of people, the embassy just happened to be where Scarlet Witch tossed him.


    Not mentioned by Ross, Avengers: Age of Ultron: The Johannesburg Incident was caused by "technically, I'm a thug for SHIELD" Hydra Master Von Strucker's pet augments poking around in the Hulk's skull.
    If you want to include it, it was Ross himself that created the Abomination in The Incredible Hulk, and the resulting rampage in Harlem (although we can skip that one as how canonical it is in the MCU is iffy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I dunno, if you look at the intended scale, Ultron is easily the worst threat of the three. Loki and Hydra wanted to conquer the world, Ultron was looking to destroy it.
    And Cap and company stopped Hydra before they could really do serious damage, while the Avengers' best attempt to stop Ultron...still caused serious damage.
    The point being, Ross was trying to lay all this trash on The Avengers' doorstep, when it was people like him that actually set the bulk of it in motion.

  9. #1419
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    You really think Ross cares about keeping himself accountable?

  10. #1420
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    Steve was ready to sign, but than Tony said that they had Wanda in custody oh sorry I forgot he called it house arrest. And for what? she tried to save people but the bomb was too strong. It was not like she threw it around carelessly. For other people that would fall under a "good samaritian" law.

    Both sides were both right and wrong and made mistakes. And I am not a fan of that kind of stories, but at least it was a lot better than the comic.
    Steve's stance has merits but when he uses Wanda as a reason why is when it becomes a weak argument. Since Avengers destroyed Sokovia there has been Wanda continuing with Lagos and Westview. I can agree he is right about being under the thumb of a body that has its own agenda but then again I don't agree with them not policing their own members

  11. #1421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    You really think Ross cares about keeping himself accountable?
    Of course not. It just bugged me that nobody called him on the BS.

  12. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    Steve's stance has merits but when he uses Wanda as a reason why is when it becomes a weak argument. Since Avengers destroyed Sokovia there has been Wanda continuing with Lagos and Westview. I can agree he is right about being under the thumb of a body that has its own agenda but then again I don't agree with them not policing their own members
    Exactly. It doesn't have to be either/or, but Marvel made it that way

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Of course not. It just bugged me that nobody called him on the BS.
    It would've been nice for someone to throw it in his face. Like when Tony called Clint out in the Raft

  13. #1423
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Nope. Going through Ross' bitch-list:
    • Marvel's The Avengers: The SSR and later a Hydra-infested SHIELD started tampering with the Tesseract back in 1945, and they were the ones that lost it to Loki, enabling him to open Thanos' can of whupass on NYC.
    • Captain America: The Winter Soldier: It was bringing down Hydra-infested SHIELD's death-carriers that required making the mess.
    • Captain America: Civil War: The damage to the Wakandan Embassy in Lagos was caused by Hydra-mole/SHIELD agent Crossbones' suicide bomb; it was going to kill a lot of people, the embassy just happened to be where Scarlet Witch tossed him.


    Not mentioned by Ross, Avengers: Age of Ultron: The Johannesburg Incident was caused by "technically, I'm a thug for SHIELD" Hydra Master Von Strucker's pet augments poking around in the Hulk's skull.
    If you want to include it, it was Ross himself that created the Abomination in The Incredible Hulk, and the resulting rampage in Harlem (although we can skip that one as how canonical it is in the MCU is iffy).



    The point being, Ross was trying to lay all this trash on The Avengers' doorstep, when it was people like him that actually set the bulk of it in motion.
    I’d add to Ross’s bitch-list one more thing he ignored that needs to be brought out again: the Hydra-infiltrated World Security Council ordering nukes fired on NYC against the invasion that Iron Man had to hijack to actually use against the Chitauri mothership.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
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  14. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    Steve's stance has merits but when he uses Wanda as a reason why is when it becomes a weak argument. Since Avengers destroyed Sokovia there has been Wanda continuing with Lagos and Westview. I can agree he is right about being under the thumb of a body that has its own agenda but then again I don't agree with them not policing their own members
    Wanda actually is a very good argument. Steve admitted that he was the one who make the mistake, that he should have caught Rumlow's suicide vest, yet it was Wanda who was being punished.

    Sokovia, Lagos and Westview were all very separate incidents. I'd presume that the Avengers gave Wanda a pass for working with Ultron, and Lagos was her being overpowered/unprepared.

  15. #1425
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Didn't he though? He didn't sign. But he didn't judge anybody else for signing, or hold it against them after they did. He LET EACH OF THEM MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE. His argument was about agency, and he made no effort to take anybody else's from them.

    The only time he expressed disappointment or frustration with any of them was Tony, and then only after he interned Wanda. And yes, that is exactly what he did. She wasn't charged with anything for South Africa or Lagos, she hadn't yet superheroed without authorization. She was being detained solely because the nature of her existence made her suspect to authorities. Steve should be judging Tony for that, quite frankly.

    Steve NEVER fought the Accords directly prior to Zemo's escape after he reactivated Bucky as the Winter Soldier. He ignored them, yes. But also showed he was prepared to face the consequences for doing what he thought was right even when he violated them. It wasn't until Germany, when Tony actively (though unwittingly) tried to stop him from interfering in Zemo's plan, which at the time Steve believed was world threatening, that Steve took up arms against the legally sponsored team. And that was after Tony made clear that signing the Accords was not just surrendering their agency, but also their very freedom if some nameles panel decided, even without cause or evidence, that they were a threat. As they did to Wanda.

    Steve was uncompromising in his beliefs, absolutely. And not necessarily in the right, clearly. But I'd hope the rest of us would have the courage to remain true to our convictions in his place.
    Remaining true to your convictions isn't inherently admirable. Rorsarch remained true to his convictions all the way up to his death.

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