Better Bromance: Spidey and Daredevil or Spidey and The Human Torch?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I wouldn't say Spider-Man and Daredevil have a bromance. Yeah they're close (at least they were when they knew each other's identities), but they have more of a serious friendship. Spider-Man and Human Torch can work together but can also watch Netflix together. Plus, that old joke about how your friends say only nice things to you but your best friend can say horrible things to you? That's kinda true with Peter and Johnny.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wouldn't say Spider-Man and Daredevil have a bromance. Yeah they're close (at least they were when they knew each other's identities), but they have more of a serious friendship. Spider-Man and Human Torch can work together but can also watch Netflix together. Plus, that old joke about how your friends say only nice things to you but your best friend can say horrible things to you? That's kinda true with Peter and Johnny.

In their case, it's Johnny pointing out that Spider-Man's life isn't as bad as he thinks it is from someone who's outside his point of view.

Johnny gets to be the Angel from It's a Wonderful Life, "Don't you see you really did have a wonderful life?"

[Sutekh]

A new CBR list has some interesting stuff to say about this.
[SNIP]
So hard empirical data settles this debate.

This is the funniest post. The notion that one of CBR's lists could settle a debate.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

In their case, it's Johnny pointing out that Spider-Man's life isn't as bad as he thinks it is from someone who's outside his point of view.

Johnny gets to be the Angel from It's a Wonderful Life, "Don't you see you really did have a wonderful life?"

I only recall one issue where Johnny pointed that out, but even then nothing about that contradicts their friendship. Also Peter doesn't always think his life is bad, it depends on the writer.

This is the funniest post. The notion that one of CBR's lists could settle a debate.

I only skimmed the list, but I already see some problems with it:

1. You can't quantitate friendship levels by number of appearances.

2. Even if you could, it doesn't account for crossovers outside of Spider-Man titles.

3. Some of those numbers are high for the opposite reasons. Iron Man appeared in Spider-Man comics more than Human Torch but he was at odds with Spider-Man almost the entire time. Iron Man as a character definitely isn't closer to him than the FF are, even at the peak of his friendship with Spider-Man.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

1. You can't quantitate friendship levels by number of appearances.

Between fictional characters in serial publications, that are ongoing, rate of appearances is an objective measure in terms of reader-engagement, popularity, editorial direction.

It sounds like bean-counting, looks like it, and feels like it, but bean-counting can be useful you know. Knowing how many panels, how many ballons, words, and so on used in the comic tells you a lot about the craft side of things.

Rate of appearances tells you likewise about what editors/writers/readers/fans collectively would have understood in a broad, unwritten, consensus as the baseline of Spider-Man and his character.

It does show that Spider-Man/Johnny Storm weren't a consistent ongoing buddy comedy duo for ages.

To the extent people think that's a case, it's down to the Slott/Templeton series, and the fact that after BND, Slott became the main ASM writer so that meant he was able to elevate that into a big deal.

But for the longest time, Spider-Man and Daredevil were the closest between two superheroes. That changed when the Affleck Daredevil movie failed and the comic lost some prestige as a result of that.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Between fictional characters in serial publications, that are ongoing, rate of appearances is an objective measure in terms of reader-engagement, popularity, editorial direction.

It sounds like bean-counting, looks like it, and feels like it, but bean-counting can be useful you know. Knowing how many panels, how many ballons, words, and so on used in the comic tells you a lot about the craft side of things.

Rate of appearances tells you likewise about what editors/writers/readers/fans collectively would have understood in a broad, unwritten, consensus as the baseline of Spider-Man and his character.

It does show that Spider-Man/Johnny Storm weren't a consistent ongoing buddy comedy duo for ages.

To the extent people think that's a case, it's down to the Slott/Templeton series, and the fact that after BND, Slott became the main ASM writer so that meant he was able to elevate that into a big deal.

But for the longest time, Spider-Man and Daredevil were the closest between two superheroes. That changed when the Affleck Daredevil movie failed and the comic lost some prestige as a result of that.

Quantitative numbers aren't nothing, but they are inductive evidence at best rather than deductive. Even then, Johnny has to be pretty high up there if we are only talking number of appearances, which is especially impressive since him and Spider-Man don't share any villains (which Spider-Man and Daredevil do).

Spider-Man and Human Torch teasing and pranking each other has always been a consistent thing. Johnny appeared the most in the Stan Lee Spider-Man comics out of all the superheroes, and other writers more or less stuck by that. Iconic Spider-Man gags like The Amazing Bag-Man also wouldn't exist without Johnny there. The only thing that changed in recent years is Johnny finally learning his secret identity in the mid 2000s. That brought them even closer together (IMO for the better), but the dynamic was always there.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Quantitative numbers aren't nothing, but they are inductive evidence at best rather than deductive.

True. I am just saying though that it's a mistake to take something as essential, eternal, and constant, and not subject to changing tastes and circumstances.

Iron Man as you point out, was a no-show for most of Spider-Man's history until New Avengers in 2003-2004.

Johnny appeared the most in the Stan Lee Spider-Man comics out of all the superheroes, and other writers more or less stuck by that.

Ditko hated that and that's why in Johnny's last appearance around Issue #18 or 19, the two get into a fight, argue and bicker and the cops nab Sandman instead. Ditko deliberately sabotaged the cool team-up attempt to spite Stan for shoehorning Johnny into the story.

[Frontier]

Ditko hated that and that's why in Johnny's last appearance around Issue #18 or 19, the two get into a fight, argue and bicker and the cops nab Sandman instead. Ditko deliberately sabotaged the cool team-up attempt to spite Stan for shoehorning Johnny into the story.

Granted, that also played into Peter and Johnny's dynamic at the time.

[Dinosaur Hulk]

I love dynamic with DD, but I gotta go with Spidey/Torch. Mini-series by Slott is one of the best comic books I've ever read and this is the best example I can present.
To me DD always seems like a teacher to Pete because he's more experienced and older, basically someone he asks for help or advice, like Dr.Strange, but Torch feels more like his buddy.