Excalibur [18]: Mad Women Spoilers

[Hulkout42]

This is what bugging me about all this, the terms "mutant magic" and also "mutant technology" for that matter.

Before the current run, was there ever really a need to labeled such things as such?

I mean i can't speak for everyone, just myself but, to me magic and technology have no labels because it is all the same in the end.

To paraphrase a episode of the Simpsons "It all Magic and Technology people!"

Be it human, alien, demonic or what have you they all use Magic in the end just as they use technology in the end. Really the whole concept of labeling things by whoever uses it just seems so ridiculous to me and why i feel so annoyed by this series...well that and the characters. I mean Doc Strange is human and Sorceror Supreme and he uses spells from different sources now is that just Magic? Or is demonic because he called upon a demon? Is it Divine if he calls on a divine entity? Is it Mutant if he uses a mutant ally to activate a spell or is it just plain and simple Magic?

Maybe i'm just reading too much into this or i am just to stupid to figure it out as the writer apparently wants me to but to me there is no distinction on who performs the spell only that they do it and get a result from it, done, moving on.

I'm not saying all this just to annoy anyone who wants to label Magic as they are in the book but i do feel really frustrated by it and so many other things gong on not just in this book but in others on this run.

[blinkingblah]

I think it's about time they put Mike Del Mundo on this book.

[warlockofgreed]

I think issue isn’t really with your post. It’s that all the examples of ‘mutant magic’ in the past year have been almost exactly the opposite of what was revealed last issue. Howard wanted the readers to figure it out on their own, but made all the hints and breadcrumbs go in another direction, lol. Look at the examples you outlined for when apocalypse was using mutant magic, he tricked rogue into stealing the magic from the gate (and before that, he was siphoning off magic from Morgan’s magic pond.) The he sacrificed the war wolves for a spell (which you mentioned is like regular human magic) he sacrificed the externals for another spell (again, just like regular, inferior human magic) And even in that flashback, he let those mutant twins drown, so he could come back and get the crystal their bones formed later.) The big reveal Richter gives in #18 is that mutants don’t have to ‘sacrifice’ to use magic, like humans do, just by them being together, they can creat magic/energy basically out of nothing.

So that’s the nature of ‘mutant magic’ Howard was evidentially trying to show, but every single example of apocalypse’s mutant magic had been him stealing or sacrificing (or tricking other people into doing it) No example of mutants creating magic by ‘being together’. Heck, even with the x is better than a circle bit, which you also noted, their first spell was in a circle (even on the data page diagram it was a circle.) So yeah, that’s why people are frustrated /confused. She was setting up ‘new mutant magic,’ which objectively didn’t seem different than ‘human magic,’ and then she completely changed the definition of ‘mutant magic’ in one issue.

Wrote quite a bit down so need to split my response in two

Part 1

I understand where you are coming from because I thought Apocalypse was being a hypocrite (and I think Selene called him out for it). He did not want mutant magic to be infallible like human magic, yet it appears he relied on human magic to support mutant magic (which makes sense because this type of mutant magic is at its dawn so it will take time for it to grow) but the comic needed someone (maybe Saturnyne or Coven Akkaba) to reference this instead of ignoring it which led to some of the confusion. Even Rictor could have mentioned in #18 that Apocalypse’s experiments utilised sources of magic based off mutant sacrifice due to mutant magic being so new, which tbh would make the idea of him being Apocalypse’s apprentice more believable. He could then have said moving forward, mutant magic would not tolerate sacrifice.

To your point about Rogue, I think the magic Rogue took from the gate is the source of magic Rictor is cultivating from the gates, which reflects the idea of mutant powers being used in tandem with channeling magic. However you do bring up a great point about their first spell being a circle and not an X, this entire spell drove me up the wall. From what we have been told, the mutant magic which exists between the gates can only be accessed with an X formation, but as they were holding as a circle which implies the source of the magic for this spell was not inbetween the gates. This begs the question, what was the source of magic for this spell? If we break down the spell:

-The place they initiate the spell is the location Betsy disappeared. As Betsy disappeared, she left some kind of energy imprint, which Excalibur decides to use as a piece of Betsy to search for her. If we think traditional magic, it is akin to using a piece of someone’s fingernails, hair or blood to cast a spell on them.

-Meggan’s mutant power as a physical empath effectively makes her one with the location she is in. This allows Excalibur to search the entire landscape of Otherworld. The closest analogy I can think of is using a scrying glass over a map to find someone.

-Next we have Rictor, whose mutant power is to control earth. When used in conjunction with Meggan, he was able to speak to the entire land (earth) of Otherworld to ask the land if the the same energy Betsy left when she disappeared could be found anywhere else in Otherworld. It is possible Rictor used his power over Earth to channel magic from the land of Otherworld but the comic has never specified that all the land of Otherworld possesses high magic levels (only certain places like the patch of land the green priestesses maintained) so we can safely ignore this.

-Now comes Gambit, whose role in this spell in the most unknown IMO. Gambit’s mutant power is to convert potential energy in an inanimate object into kinetic energy. Rictor says “That feeling. Kinetic energy. What if it was a different kind of energy? Whatever it is that makes our powers? Like Magical Energy” which honestly, I have no idea what that means. It sounds like Gambit’s power was used in a new way but that was not disclosed to the readers which is incredibly irritating. Also, Rictor’s comment suggests mutant powers comes from magical energy (which is hard to believe because this sounds like a concept that drastically changes mutant biology and should have more of an impact to the whole line). It could be that mutant energy is interchangeable with magical energy, which makes more sense, but I am still unsure. Whatever the case, I think Gambit using his powers is the source of magic for this spell but it was not explained to the reader on why/how Gambit did this (I will expand later on how this differs to the mutant magic which comes from inbetween the gates and relies on the X formation)

-Next is Jubilee, whose mutant power is to generate pyrotechnic energy plasmoids. Jubilee’s role is pretty straightforward, her power is used to summon fairies to ask if any of them have seen 616 Betsy in all of Otherworld (this role could easily have been filled by Pixie using her pixie dust to summon them but that really has nothing to do with this lol).

-Finally is Rogue, whose power is absorbing energy off others. Since HOXPOX, we know for complex mutant synergy, a power conduit is needed to balance all the energy. In this case, Rogue serves that role.

The outcome of this spell was the summoning of the Captain Britain’s Corps. But the unclear point here is where the source of the magic for this spell came from and why was an X formation not used.

For the first point, I think Gambit’s mutant ability did something new which was the source of magic for the spell, but I have no idea what he did (hopefully this will be explained).

As for why an X formation was not necessary, if we assume Gambit was the source of magic, then that means inbetween Krakoan portals was not. #1 states this magic created from the gates can only be used with minimum four mutants in an x-formation. However, if Gambit’s mutant ability was the source of magic, then this would mean the x-formation would not be necessary as Gambit does not have the x-formation requirement.

(If the Gambit idea is hard to get your head around, imagine if we swapped him with Magik. She would use her mutant ability to channel magic from Limbo which would have been the source of magic instead)

When Rictor states in #16 having Rogue in the middle (creating an X-formation) would be more powerful, it probably holds true because then the spell would have been powered by both Gambit’s mutant ability and the inbetween Krakoan gates (this needs a better name lol)

[warlockofgreed]

Part 2


In regard to the dead twins, this was less about magic and more about Apocalypse sticking to his ethics i.e. survival of the fittest, and as the twins could not save themselves, they were weak in his eyes and were left to die. It just happens that mutant bones are a magic battery which gains power they are left alone (including post death). The magic in these bones are a source of energy which be channeled by anybody (mutant, human, skrull, asgardian, etc) because that is what they are, batteries which are empty once used in a spell (pretty sure the druids could use them). The battery theory probably applies to the warskulls as well, rendering their line null created a battery of magic accessed via their bones. Strictly speaking, this would not count as human magic and while it is a cost, it is not a cost to mutants. (this may come from the notion that when a witch dies, their magic is bound to their bones)

Now, in regards to mutant magic and human magic, after writing all this out, I think I finally understand magic in this comic and where the confusion came from. The magic which was created from the opening of the gates is merely a source of magic which can only be utilised by mutants, no different to human bargaining for power from mystical entities. The actual practice of mutants casting spells come from them utilising their powers to manipulate magic, which is what should be labelled mutant magic (things we have seen Magik do for years). However, while Magik drawing power from Limbo is the basic principle of mutant magic, the spells which she cast were created by human spellcasters, intended for humans which we would label human magic.

The closest analogy I can think of is make-up being made for all shades of Caucasian people and only one shade of colour for all POC. Human magic is created to fit around the sensibilities and limitations of humans, not mutants. So while mutants can still benefit from human magic, it would be considered inferior due to mutants being stronger than humans.

The magic created by the gates and the reliance of the x-formation is merely an additional source of magic only mutants can access. If we call mutants using their powers to manipulate magic as stage 1, accessing the power from the gates should be considered stage 2.

At this current time, I would say human magic does exceed mutant magic due to how long it has existed for while mutant magic is new, but with time mutant magic should come to equal human magic, and maybe surpass it.

Also, regarding the data pages and why there is an X in the middle of the page but the mutants are placed on the outer circle in + shape, not an X, this was really odd to me and added to my frustration of the comic but I think this one of those infamous ”seeds” which have been placed in the comic. Firstly, ignore the circles, they mean nothing and serve to confuse people. Rictor talks about how he wants to make a more powerful formation to increase the amount of power they can channel from the gates. A + is merely an X turned by 45 degrees. If you place a + and an x on top of each other then you get a new casting formation which should, at minimum, double the amount of magic you can channel from the gates.

I guess this is the end of my TED talk about mutant magic lmao. I will preface that a lot of the above is what I think is happening and could all fall apart with the next issue but I gave it my best shot and no longer should this comic frustrate me (for now at least).

Also, a lot of this is held together by the assumption that Gambit is the source of magic for Betsy summoning spell. While I could be wrong here, due to this spell being what I think is the simplest version of mutant magic and should be explainable using the previous 18 issues, then I would say it holds true, or at least 80% of it does. If this is not true and we still need a future issue to explain the spell, then I think the story has failed at what it has tried to do.
If anyone has any questions, please let me know! I have wrote a LOT down and while it makes sense to me, it might not to other people.

Finally, would like to mention that interpreting what I think mutant magic is has been more fun than I thought.

[warlockofgreed]

Now I wonder if the gathering of the twelve ritual was another example of mutant magic performed by apocalypse to gain godly powers

That is a really good shout, it would make sense with everything we have learned about him since HOXPOX.

What do you think about the spell Forge cast back during the Fall of the Mutants to bring him and storm back to Earth? The energy came from Storm's mutant ability and Forge cast the spell. Maybe even the spell Forge used to kill The Adversary could be classed as a mutant spell.

[Rnap22]

That is a really good shout, it would make sense with everything we have learned about him since HOXPOX.

What do you think about the spell Forge cast back during the Fall of the Mutants to bring him and storm back to Earth? The energy came from Storm's mutant ability and Forge cast the spell. Maybe even the spell Forge used to kill The Adversary could be classed as a mutant spell.

You’ve given more thought to mutant magic than Tini. What makes you think the magic and power is coming in between the gates? The gates are part of Krakoa and they connect to him. The energy that Rogue absorbed came through the gate, not from the gate. Rictor was lost in between because the Otherworld gates were supposed to need a crystal.

I don’t think she has a plan. Mutant magic seems way to complicated. If Ewing in the first issue of S.W.O.R.D. can explain how all of the pieces fit, Tini could have done the same so when it was time we could have been like “huh, that’s how that works”. I’m not trying to figure it out like she wants us to. It’s the premise of the book.

It’s a shame that most of my favorite characters are in this book. If you look at Hellions and S.W.O.R.D. that don’t have A list characters, they’re doing better characterization and giving people moments. There are reasons for them being there. Here, not so much.

[Daedra]

That is a really good shout, it would make sense with everything we have learned about him since HOXPOX.

What do you think about the spell Forge cast back during the Fall of the Mutants to bring him and storm back to Earth? The energy came from Storm's mutant ability and Forge cast the spell. Maybe even the spell Forge used to kill The Adversary could be classed as a mutant spell.

Sounds like a good candidate as well, nice find!

[Ferro]

Every mutant tech is mutant magic, but not all mutant magic is tech, its the crossing of mutant energy and magic that creates a new power, so sometimes that expresses like the circuits by uniting ones powers.
But its rules deal with metaphysical/magical elements that remove the logic that defines the circuits that we see:

A made up example, a telekinetic in a mutant circuit will always have a similar function of moving/creating a force for a purpose
however in mutant magic, that mutant's telekinetic abilities are like an ingredient/wand on a witches brew, it can be used in the same way is it would be in a circuit, but maybe it's used just used as a presence to allow for a certain magical reaction, or it can go into a direction that breaks the rules of their inherited abilities

now a book one: Rogue normaly would be used in a way to mimic one's powers or absord one's powers in a circuit, however in the ritual to recreate the conection betwen krakoa and otherworld she wasnt absorbing life energy but the energy resulting of betsy hitting the gate in avalon in issue 1 with a massive surge of psychic energy.
Rictor's inherited conection to the earth is manifested solely trough vibrations, but mutant magic allowed him to breach out into more than that, into minerals/plants/magma.

it's very easy to understand when you read the whole book, but many a people here have admited not to read it all just scans and second hand opinions to continue in their established hatred of the title, soooooooo..

[warlockofgreed]

You’ve given more thought to mutant magic than Tini. What makes you think the magic and power is coming in between the gates? The gates are part of Krakoa and they connect to him. The energy that Rogue absorbed came through the gate, not from the gate. Rictor was lost in between because the Otherworld gates were supposed to need a crystal.

I don’t think she has a plan. Mutant magic seems way to complicated. If Ewing in the first issue of S.W.O.R.D. can explain how all of the pieces fit, Tini could have done the same so when it was time we could have been like “huh, that’s how that works”. I’m not trying to figure it out like she wants us to. It’s the premise of the book.

It’s a shame that most of my favorite characters are in this book. If you look at Hellions and S.W.O.R.D. that don’t have A list characters, they’re doing better characterization and giving people moments. There are reasons for them being there. Here, not so much.

Tini definitely has a plan. Most of the things I have spoken about comes from what has been provided by the Excalibur series. The ideas which she has introduced are interesting and fresh (look at the expansion of Otherworld, the fair and foul courts are all new places, except the Crooked Market, this was introduced in Hickman’s New Avengers run when Dr Strange went there) but due to so many ideas being thrown at readers without real explanation, it comes across as a messy clusterfudge.

In the data page of #1, it states “The energetic surge delivered by the opening of the gates and the rise of mutantkind creates an inverse wherein so below/so above.” The implication of this is when the gates opened, a vacuum was created in the space between the gates which was filled by energy which became a source of magic only accessible to mutants. This would explain how Rogue got supercharged into a battery and with Rictor, your point is accurate. The Otherworld gate needs to be stabilised with a crystal so when Rictor fell into an unstable gate, he ended up in the place between gates, which is the location of the energetic surge which became the source of magic available only to mutants.

I agree that a SWORD #1 explanation breakdown should have been provided (ideally in #16 when they summon Betsy) to help round up the concepts so people could have that “Ahah” moment. And I do not blame people for not wanting to figure it out because it requires a lot of analysis and reading between the lines which is sad because the concepts are new and exciting.

The problem with characterisations is a separate issue from what mutant magic is and I cannot justify/explain those lol. I really feel bad for Gambit and Jubilee fans because their role in the book has basically been wallpaper and even in recent interviews, there has been no indication they will be having an arc-centered around them.

An idea for a Gambit arc:

If anyone has read the Mystic Arcana series, they talk about the origin of the Black Knight’s ebony blade, how it was forged from a meteorite called “Starheart” and cooled using special lake of blood (which could be retconned to connect with Sevalith) . Along with the sword, an ebony staff, shield and chalice were forged but banished to nothingness (an easy retcon to Blightspoke). So, when Gambit raided Saturnyne’s closet, the other ebony weapons could be there for whatever reasons and Gambit steals the staff for himself (which makes sense as he uses a Bo staff and he is in a comic about magic so a mystical weapon would be useful). The weapon could have a blood curse similar to the ebony blade, which affects Gambit.

Excalibur would then need to create a mutant spell to counter the curse or change it into something different. Also, this could show the advantage of mutant spells over human spells because no one has been able to remove the blood curse from the ebony blade for the Black Knight.

[Dante Milton]

I'm not really confused about mutant magic, but Howard's revelation of what it is, explanation of the mechanics of it, and function of it have been poorly executed within the text. And it's just kind of boring, when it should be new and exciting. This series would benefit greatly by just being more fun all around. So far it has been very angsty and self serious, which is fine, but I would prefer that be balanced out with some humor and upbeat moments, more like the tone of the original Excalibur. It would also be better suited to the personalities of the cast.

[Outburstz]

Wouldn't it be simpler to say that the mutant magic energy that the mutants are using through the gates is coming from Krakoa taking that energy from mutants in the first place?

We know that Krakoa is stealing psychic energy from all mutants on the island. Maybe it isn't just taking that energy but also their magic energy and putting it in the gates. Krakoa taking and storing magic energy from the mutants could be related to how Moria might finally turn the tables on the humans and have mutants "win".

[Grunty]

I'm not really confused about mutant magic, but Howard's revelation of what it is, explanation of the mechanics of it, and function of it have been poorly executed within the text. And it's just kind of boring, when it should be new and exciting.

Reading various attempts at trying to explain mutant magic and seeing how needlessly complicated (yet kind of dumb) it seems to be to explain, understand or apply, for so little it adds to the story or setting, i have the strong feeling future writers will just ignore,t handwave it away, or at simply dismiss it as it could just be a roadblock when they want to apply magic to their X-men stories. So no more "human" and "mutant" magic, just mutants who can use magic as good old universal cheat code to the universe and reality.

Especialy when the movies, games and tv products will just make a quick arc around it or just waltz over it, because of never knowing it was a thing at all.

It reminds me a bit to the RPG system Phoenix Command, where the creator had put a lot of thought into the rules for a particular part of an RPG experience, but forgot or was unable to create everything else that is required for an enjoyable experience. Which isn't an uncommon occurence. There have been several writers in the past who thought if they create something elaborate or complex it equals to being interesting, but failing to make it engaging.
At least her Otherworld stuff has not reached World of Synnibarr level of overly elaborate and over the top backstory for the sake of sounding mystical and grand.

The whole "mutant + *word" thing in general feels like a weird attempt at trying to make mutants more special than they allready are, perhaps as some kind of compensation for how they were pushed down because of Joe Q's attempt at pushing the Avengers (House of M), followed by the movie rights conflict.

[Big Joe]

I think some of it's going to stick, it's going to be around forever. I prefer not to think of it as mutant magic, or mutant technology. But instead more as power synergy, by which I'm meaning the result is more than the sum of its parts.

For example, Dazzler and Banshee fighting together are both capable of hitting at a particular level, but if Dazzler is powered up further by Banshee's scream her hit would be harder than the pair of them hitting independently.

[jwatson]

Tini definitely has a plan. Most of the things I have spoken about comes from what has been provided by the Excalibur series. The ideas which she has introduced are interesting and fresh (look at the expansion of Otherworld, the fair and foul courts are all new places, except the Crooked Market, this was introduced in Hickman’s New Avengers run when Dr Strange went there) but due to so many ideas being thrown at readers without real explanation, it comes across as a messy clusterfudge.

In the data page of #1, it states “The energetic surge delivered by the opening of the gates and the rise of mutantkind creates an inverse wherein so below/so above.” The implication of this is when the gates opened, a vacuum was created in the space between the gates which was filled by energy which became a source of magic only accessible to mutants. This would explain how Rogue got supercharged into a battery and with Rictor, your point is accurate. The Otherworld gate needs to be stabilised with a crystal so when Rictor fell into an unstable gate, he ended up in the place between gates, which is the location of the energetic surge which became the source of magic available only to mutants.

I agree that a SWORD #1 explanation breakdown should have been provided (ideally in #16 when they summon Betsy) to help round up the concepts so people could have that “Ahah” moment. And I do not blame people for not wanting to figure it out because it requires a lot of analysis and reading between the lines which is sad because the concepts are new and exciting.

The problem with characterisations is a separate issue from what mutant magic is and I cannot justify/explain those lol. I really feel bad for Gambit and Jubilee fans because their role in the book has basically been wallpaper and even in recent interviews, there has been no indication they will be having an arc-centered around them.

An idea for a Gambit arc:

If anyone has read the Mystic Arcana series, they talk about the origin of the Black Knight’s ebony blade, how it was forged from a meteorite called “Starheart” and cooled using special lake of blood (which could be retconned to connect with Sevalith) . Along with the sword, an ebony staff, shield and chalice were forged but banished to nothingness (an easy retcon to Blightspoke). So, when Gambit raided Saturnyne’s closet, the other ebony weapons could be there for whatever reasons and Gambit steals the staff for himself (which makes sense as he uses a Bo staff and he is in a comic about magic so a mystical weapon would be useful). The weapon could have a blood curse similar to the ebony blade, which affects Gambit.

Excalibur would then need to create a mutant spell to counter the curse or change it into something different. Also, this could show the advantage of mutant spells over human spells because no one has been able to remove the blood curse from the ebony blade for the Black Knight.

I really enjoy reading your posts they make sense to me and fill in some of the blanks in the issues as it gives me some sort of perimeter to begin to put pieces in to place that make sense to me. I really wish the book did that. It's like even though we may not be 100% on the same page you frame things in a way that gives my mind access to the ability to actually go somewhere with mutant magic and begin to conceptualize how mutant abilities can be translated into equivalent of magic in the principle of type of magic. Makes me kind of think of the Charmed ones and the power of three. The original charmed ones.

[CGAR]

The thing is there are too many ideas that are between the lines or story beats that readers are just expected know. Too much bouncing around. And things that happen off panel.

Maybe she'll do better on X-CORP.

I just don't think the mutant magic theme is going well for her. Al Ewing did in one issue what TH decided to do in 16 issues.

She basically gave Rictor Magma's powers and explains it as magic.

We'll see how this Betsy/Kwannon arc goes but I'm still concerned by her not really being able to handle a team and give them their correct voices.