"Superman" is a Mantle

[Morgoth]

I have a bad feeling Superman's space sojourn in his main title is supposed to be his last adventure as Superman, and his changing powers (be it a depletion or something else going on), will ultimately cause him to retire.

Williamson in latest podcast directly said that there won't be any replacements for Bruce and and Clark, they're not planning to retire anyone, otherwise they wouldn't threw 5G in garbage can.

[Superboy-Prime]

Williamson in latest podcast directly said that there won't be any replacements for Bruce and and Clark, they're not planning to retire anyone, otherwise they wouldn't threw 5G in garbage can.

Superman and Batman will still be shared mantles going forward, though. But no one should worry about Earth-0 Clark Kent retiring. Even if there's a younger, stronger, more cooler Superman on Earth-Prime.

[SecretWarrior]

I'm not arguing against the idea of a writer, any writer, being able to just say "I want it to be this". I'm arguing that the idea that Jon being Clark Superman in the DCU somehow doesn't make sense or is unlikely when left on its own.



Literally everyone with eyes. Superman is even more of a nickname/title than it ever was before now that Clark is out. You see the son of Superman flying around overhead, you're not gonna stop and go "oh look it's Superstar." No. You're gonna go "oh snap, it's little Superman" weather Jon wants you to or not because that's how people work and think.

This was a point brought up in Bendis' run. Lobo calls Jon "little Superman", Jon corrects him, and Lobo doesn't care. Then Kilowog calls him "young Superman", and Jon, likely done with correcting people by this point, just goes with it. Both knew Clark was still around, but both also have EYES and know Jon is THE SON OF SUPERMAN.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, people are gonna call it a duck. That's just how people work and think.

You personally not being comfortable with the idea of heroes sharing names is its own thing, but it's not something a story has to worry about in the age of two Spider-Men. Moreover, you thinking it's a bad idea that Clark goes off to space is, once again, it's own personal thing, but it clearly makes the "why would people call him Superman" thing even more of a non-issue than it already was.

They should change their last name to Superman.

One day we may see Harvey Superman, attorney at law.

[Superboy-Prime]

I'm not arguing against the idea of a writer, any writer, being able to just say "I want it to be this". I'm arguing that the idea that Jon being Clark Superman in the DCU somehow doesn't make sense or is unlikely when left on its own.



Literally everyone with eyes. Superman is even more of a nickname/title than it ever was before now that Clark is out. You see the son of Superman flying around overhead, you're not gonna stop and go "oh look it's Superstar." No. You're gonna go "oh snap, it's little Superman" weather Jon wants you to or not because that's how people work and think.

This was a point brought up in Bendis' run. Lobo calls Jon "little Superman", Jon corrects him, and Lobo doesn't care. Then Kilowog calls him "young Superman", and Jon, likely done with correcting people by this point, just goes with it. Both knew Clark was still around, but both also have EYES and know Jon is THE SON OF SUPERMAN.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, people are gonna call it a duck. That's just how people work and think.

You personally not being comfortable with the idea of heroes sharing names is its own thing, but it's not something a story has to worry about in the age of two Spider-Men. Moreover, you thinking it's a bad idea that Clark goes off to space is, once again, it's own personal thing, but it clearly makes the "why would people call him Superman" thing even more of a non-issue than it already was.

This was nothing but facts my gosh

[bat39]

I'm pretty sure the people who said that about Alan and Jay are either dead by now or lost interest in comic books when Alan and Jay ceased being published and there was a lull before Barry and Hal were introduced. Superman's never ceased being published that way and made it into a larger mass media presence.

Superman dying again wouldn't be huge. He's already died and come back, why would this be any different? Wally gained traction because Barry's star had faded and they could afford to leave him dead for a couple decades, while his nephew (who looked exactly like him in costume anyway) could carry on. Even that wasn't permanent.

The only limitations they have on Clark are the ones the writers and fanbase put on him. It's difficult to break that when experimenting, but not impossible. If he's gone from 1938 until now as the main guy and everyone and their dog knows he's Clark Kent when they haven't even read comics or consumed any media, we're going to need at least half that length of time to break the idea of there only being one Superman to get some footing.

Pretty much this.

You just can't compare Superman to Flash or Green Lantern in this regard.

We've had 65 years of precedent for the Flash being a mantle that different characters can own and be recognized as the legitimate in-continuity holder of the title. With Superman on the other hand, we have 83 years of precedent for Superman being ONE man called Clark Kent AKA Kal-El. The whole world knows this...including people who've never opened a Superman comic-book in their life!

Yes, you can always have other Supermen, but here's the thing...they'll always be the other Supermen. You can have the clone Superman, the cyborg Superman, the Chinese Superman, the black President Superman, the son of Superman - the list goes on - and many of them might be great characters, and even successful ones. But they'll never be Superman in the way Clark Kent/Kal-El is.

Now, hypothetically, if Jon Kent became Superman this year, and continued to stay the face of the franchise for the next 40-plus years, then yeah, I could begin to buy the argument that he has an almost equal claim to the Superman name.

[Sacred Knight]

This whole thread is people jumping to assumptions. It's not like this Clark Kent was ever the real Superman anyway. The real one was discarded back in 1985.

As has been mentioned before, its not the same thing. There's a big difference between evolving Clark and creating flat out different incarnations of Clark (like post-Crisis, New 52, etc) as opposed to trying to make it a legacy mantle in real time continuity for some other character to take. Where this may be semantics to some, fair enough. Its not to the large majority of Superman fandom, though. And as others have pointed it out, its hard to cry foul on not accepting this type of change when the world over Superman is known as being the superhero identity of Clark Kent. People know this pretty much from the womb, that's how big a part of Americana he is that is known the world over. And there are some instances where I wholly admit and embrace the idea that fandom is very fickle and resistant to change. This type of change though? Its not on fandom when they largely reject this one.

[Superboy-Prime]

Pretty much this.

You just can't compare Superman to Flash or Green Lantern in this regard.

We've had 65 years of precedent for the Flash being a mantle that different characters can own and be recognized as the legitimate in-continuity holder of the title. With Superman on the other hand, we have 83 years of precedent for Superman being ONE man called Clark Kent AKA Kal-El. The whole world knows this...including people who've never opened a Superman comic-book in their life!

Yes, you can always have other Supermen, but here's the thing...they'll always be the other Supermen. You can have the clone Superman, the cyborg Superman, the Chinese Superman, the black President Superman, the son of Superman - the list goes on - and many of them might be great characters, and even successful ones. But they'll never be Superman in the way Clark Kent/Kal-El is.

Now, hypothetically, if Jon Kent became Superman this year, and continued to stay the face of the franchise for the next 40-plus years, then yeah, I could begin to buy the argument that he has an almost equal claim to the Superman name.

Okay, I see this a lot, but everyone and their mom knows Jon Kent won't be seen as an equal Superman to Clark in a year. Everyone knows it'd take a considerable amount of time to establish him as just as much of a Superman as Kal. Nobody's saying otherwise.

[TheBatman]

Not a fan of Mantle sharing, especially when it comes to characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and Wonder Woman.

The day the Batman and Superman become the mess that is The Flash and GL franchises is the day I pack it in.

Even "Into the Spider-Verse" was smart enough not to depict Miles as sharing the mantle of Spider-Man, unlike the comics and video games.

[Alpha]

Don't you guys realize that the mere fact that we are discussing this much is proof that this will only create division amongst the fandom? This is the whole point, we wouldn't have to discuss this if they just made him into his own separate individual, with his own separate gimmick. There is no value in creating this disparity. It won't give you anymore sales.

I will never understand the appeal of having Jon become a "cooler" version of his dad, instead of just being his own unique identity, character and role. It reduces what he is, instead of expanding.

[Sacred Knight]

Okay, I see this a lot, but everyone and their mom knows Jon Kent won't be seen as an equal Superman to Clark in a year. Everyone knows it'd take a considerable amount of time to establish him as just as much of a Superman as Kal. Nobody's saying otherwise.

Which begs the question then, why bother? There's a reason they did this to Barry Allen in 1985. He was woefully unpopular. No one cared about The Flash anymore. Freshening the mythos up with Wally West was a suitable risk, that ended up paying dividends. Further more Wally was a popular stalwart of the mythos in his own right, which cannot be said for Jon. So what's the gain in replacing Clark Kent when you know no one will accept anyone else as a main line Superman?

[Superboy-Prime]

Which begs the question then, why bother? There's a reason they did this to Barry Allen in 1985. He was woefully unpopular. No one cared about The Flash anymore. Freshening the mythos up with Wally West was a suitable risk, that ended up paying dividends. Further more Wally was a popular stalwart of the mythos in his own right, which cannot be said for Jon. So what's the gain in replacing Clark Kent when you know no one will accept anyone else as a main line Superman?

The real question is: Who said they were replacing Clark Kent?

[PCN24454]

Which begs the question then, why bother? There's a reason they did this to Barry Allen in 1985. He was woefully unpopular. No one cared about The Flash anymore. Freshening the mythos up with Wally West was a suitable risk, that ended up paying dividends. Further more Wally was a popular stalwart of the mythos in his own right, which cannot be said for Jon. So what's the gain in replacing Clark Kent when you know no one will accept anyone else as a main line Superman?

That just means that we should kill Clark off and make Jon to solo Superman. Readers will have no choice but to accept him then.

It’ll be great! Characters will actually be allowed to age and progress.

[Superlad93]

Don't you guys realize that the mere fact that we are discussing this much is proof that this will only create division amongst the fandom? This is the whole point, we wouldn't have to discuss this if they just made him into his own separate individual, with his own separate gimmick. There is no value in creating this disparity. It won't give you anymore sales.

I will never understand the appeal of having Jon become a "cooler" version of his dad, instead of just being his own unique identity, character and role. It reduces what he is, instead of expanding.

All this proves is that we're all f$%king nerds, dude.

I've seen long form discussions about Lois Lane's hair color and length before, so we're most certainly gonna debate about the idea of Jon, or any character, holding the title of Superman. Regardless of those who want Jon to have his own codename or not, this is easily one of the most discussion worthy topics for Superman since he died.

Fandoms will divide regarding literally the dumbest things. We'd have some version of this discussion if Jon were being called something else (just look at roller-coaster that is Damian). There's always something to complain, debate, or just all around bitch about. That's the nature of this hobby you've found yourself in, and an alterative that's closer to your sensibilities and what you feel is right doesn't change that.

[Robanker]

All this proves is that we're all f$%king nerds, dude.

I've seen long form discussions about Lois Lane's hair color and length before, so we're most certainly gonna debate about the idea of Jon, or any character, holding the title of Superman. Regardless of those who want Jon to have his own codename or not, this is easily one of the most discussion worthy topics for Superman since he died.

Fandoms will divide regarding literally the dumbest things. We'd have some version of this discussion if Jon were being called something else (just look at roller-coaster that is Damian). There's always something to complain, debate, or just all around bitch about. That's the nature of this hobby you've found yourself in, and an alterative that's closer to your sensibilities and what you feel is right doesn't change that.

AHEM. That's important, sir.

Brothers have gone to war over less.

[Sacred Knight]

The real question is: Who said they were replacing Clark Kent?

Right now its "sharing" which is bad enough. But the tea leaves right now suggest a step-down from one. And its not their golden boy.

That just means that we should kill Clark off and make Jon to solo Superman. Readers will have no choice but to accept him then.

It’ll be great! Characters will actually be allowed to age and progress.

Except aging has never been a selling point. And while American superhero comics are nowhere near what they used to be, they're still here after almost a century. Fact is that amongst the industry and amongst the fandom, aging is largely not seen as a big deal. It is, more often than not, downright rebuffed.