"Superman" is a Mantle

[Superboy-Prime]

And none of those are as cemented as Bruce as Batman. 99.9% of the time when someone says Batman, they mean Bruce Wayne. Not that Terry and Dick!Bats aren't popular in their own right, but they are not definitively on equal footing as Batman= Bruce.

And lol as if anyone cares about Azbats anymore.

I don't remember saying any of them were as "cemented" as Bruce, so not sure where that came from.

All that other stuff is cool, but there's more than one Batman, and it's not up for discussion. To say there's "only one Batman" is very hyperbolic and just a bit inflammatory. And objectively wrong, too.

[Alpha]

Making Jon different from Clark is something PKJ is trying to do.

Nobody would get Damian and Bruce confused, whereas Jon and Clark could definitely be confused. The best thing for Jon is for him to become someone completely different from Clark, and have a completely different role. Being Superman doesn't actually help him. It's one of the many bad decisions they have done with him lately.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't remember saying any of them were as "cemented" as Bruce, so not sure where that came from.

All that other stuff is cool, but there's more than one Batman, and it's not up for discussion. To say there's "only one Batman" is very hyperbolic and just a bit inflammatory. And objectively wrong, too.

Cemented reaffirms that there is one true Batman. Which is kind of a fact based on history and number of appearances, including across a lot of other media, and the fact that the identity was created with him.

Saying there is only one, say, Green Lantern or Flash is hyperbolic and objectively false. Not so much with Batman. With him there is one real Batman, the character that has existed almost non-stop from 1939 until now and was created with the identity. There are popular stand ins, but everyone knows they are just that and will never permanently replace him. That doesn't mean they can't have a lot going for them (Dick as Batman is great), but they are not the real deal. if such a thing as multiple Batmen getting equal standing could have happened, it would have happened well before now.

it'd be the same if they ever shared the mantle of Superman. There would be only one real deal since we've gone from 1938 until now with Clark Kent and people who have never picked up a comic know that Superman = Clark Kent. It wouldn't be comparable to other mantle sharing/passing.

[Superboy-Prime]

Nobody would get Damian and Bruce confused, whereas Jon and Clark could definitely be confused. The best thing for Jon is for him to become someone completely different from Clark, and have a completely different role. Being Superman doesn't actually help him. It's one of the many bad decisions they have done with him lately.

Yeah, I disagree. Never seen someone confuse Jon for Clark, and their current designs really aren't too similar, apart from the inherited genetics.

[Superboy-Prime]

Cemented reaffirms that there is one true Batman. Which is kind of a fact based on history and number of appearances, including across a lot of other media, and the fact that the identity was created with him.

Saying there is only one, say, Green Lantern or Flash is hyperbolic and objectively false. Not so much with Batman. With him there is one real Batman, the character that has existed almost non-stop from 1939 until now and was created with the identity. There are popular stand ins, but everyone knows they are just that and will never permanently replace him. That doesn't mean they can't have a lot going for them (Dick as Batman is great), but they are not the real deal. if such a thing as multiple Batmen getting equal standing could have happened, it would have happened well before now.

it'd be the same if they ever shared the mantle of Superman. There would be only one real deal since we've gone from 1938 until now with Clark Kent and people who have never picked up a comic know that Superman = Clark Kent. It wouldn't be comparable to other mantle sharing/passing.

There's nothing factual about saying there's only one Batman, that's entirely based on your own subjective reasoning. What is factual is that multiple characters have held the mantle, and if you only need to have one to objectively prove it, Terry McGinnis is a genuine Batman.

[NaVi]

Yeah, just one Batman! Batman, Inc., Batman Beyond, Batman (Dick Grayson), and Batman (Azrael) be erased from the collective consciousness! *Cough*

Go out on the street and ask, who is Batman? What do you think they will tell you?

[Superboy-Prime]

Go out on the street and ask, who is Batman? What do you think they will tell you?

The answer is obvious, but that doesn't mean it's a valid point. You think the general population knew who Miles Morales was before Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse?

Pretty sure they'd know who Batman Beyond is, though.

Bruce being the most popular Batman ≠ Bruce being the only Batman

[SiegePerilous02]

There's nothing factual about saying there's only one Batman, that's entirely based on your own subjective reasoning. What is factual is that multiple characters have held the mantle, and if you only need to have one to objectively prove it, Terry McGinnis is a genuine Batman.

This is your own subjective reasoning. It's factual that multiple characters have held the mantle (never denied that??), but it's also factual to say they all were in Bruce's shadow and he is the main one who is Batman 99% of the time. There is one main Batman along with some popular stand ins that never had a shot of overtaking him permanently, and that's just a fact. Bruce's is the name people think of first and foremost when they hear "Batman", not Terry. And it'd be the same with Superman.

[Alpha]

Yeah, I disagree. Never seen someone confuse Jon for Clark, and their current designs really aren't too similar, apart from the inherited genetics.

You clearly enjoy seeing Jon becoming Superman. I'm not gonna try to disuade you from that. I personally liked Jon as a kid and was excited to see him growing up. After they forced him to lose his whole pre adolescence with his parents I was on one hand hoping it was temporary, but sending him to the future felt like an awful decision. On one hand because Superboy working with the Legion weights them down, on the other because it suddenly became about Jon actually trying to replace his dad, instead of being his own individual character. The most interesting avenue for me with Clark's supporting cast is, what do they see in the world that Clark doesn't see. What isn't he doing that someone has to do? And there are plenty of fascinating things Jon would do if his father was around. In my opinion that's the most interesting conflict, Jon believing his own dad isn't doing enough and trying to do things his father wouldn't do, and Clark being there to react to all of this.

Him becoming Superman nails down all of these plots into the least confrontational and creative direction they could go. Having Clark leave earth is a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes him so interesting. It's that he is THE MAN on earth, and that's the most stressful thing anyone could be. Clark's best intentions could lead him to be a standstill with no impact on the world, or be the one to start the apocalypse and the self destruction of humanity. He's trying to find the perfect balance in there to actually improve the world. All the while trying to get to live in it. Putting him in space removes all of these things.

But in order for Jon to be Superman, Clark couldn't be the one in Metropolis. It's damages both of them. I'm still curious about PKJ and I think might actually enjoy it, but he is definitely moving away from the most interesting version of these characters.

[Superboy-Prime]

This is your own subjective reasoning. It's factual that multiple characters have held the mantle (never denied that??), but it's also factual to say they all were in Bruce's shadow and he is the main one who is Batman 99% of the time. There is one main Batman along with some popular stand ins that never had a shot of overtaking him permanently, and that's just a fact. Bruce's is the name people think of first and foremost when they hear "Batman", not Terry. And it'd be the same with Superman.

That's not what subjective means. There's nothing subjective about the main character of Batman Beyond, Terry McGinnis, being Batman.

Saying there's "one main Batman" is correct, I'd agree with you there! Saying there's "only one Batman" is factually incorrect.

[Superboy-Prime]

You clearly enjoy seeing Jon becoming Superman. I'm not gonna try to disuade you from that. I personally liked Jon as a kid and was excited to see him growing up. After they forced him to lose his whole pre adolescence with his parents I was on one hand hoping it was temporary, but sending him to the future felt like an awful decision. On one hand because Superboy working with the Legion weights them down, on the other because it suddenly became about Jon actually trying to replace his dad, instead of being his own individual character. The most interesting avenue for me with Clark's supporting cast is, what do they see in the world that Clark doesn't see. What isn't he doing that someone has to do? And there are plenty of fascinating things Jon would do if his father was around. In my opinion that's the most interesting conflict, Jon believing his own dad isn't doing enough and trying to do things his father wouldn't do, and Clark being there to react to all of this.

Him becoming Superman nails down all of these plots into the least confrontational and creative direction they could go. Having Clark leave earth is a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes him so interesting. It's that he is THE MAN on earth, and that's the most stressful thing anyone could be. Clark's best intentions could lead him to be a standstill with no impact on the world, or be the one to start the apocalypse and the self destruction of humanity. He's trying to find the perfect balance in there to actually improve the world. All the while trying to get to live in it. Putting him in space removes all of these things.

But in order for Jon to be Superman, Clark couldn't be the one in Metropolis. It's damages both of them. I'm still curious about PKJ and I think might actually enjoy it, but he is definitely moving away from the most interesting version of these characters.

I really don't enjoy seeing Jon become Superman. I just disagree with some of your assertions about the character.

[Arsenal]

I don’t mind Superman being one of those legacies that lives beyond the original.

Of course that’s not to say the same can’t be done by having somebody wear his symbol instead, but it’s one of the names in universe that it would make sense for somebody to decide to carry on the name when Clark himself isn’t able to.

[PCN24454]

We can end the series right now if anyone likes.

After all, the true Superman died alongside Siegel and Shuster. Everyone after is just a copy.

[SiegePerilous02]

That's not what subjective means. There's nothing subjective about the main character of Batman Beyond, Terry McGinnis, being Batman.

Saying there's "one main Batman" is correct, I'd agree with you there! Saying there's "only one Batman" is factually incorrect.

I think where it gets subjective is that people view can view Terry as a stand in or "a" Batman, but not "the" Batman. And it's not as if saying he's a stand in/'"a" Batman needs to be inherently a bad thing.

Yes, we are in agreement on the main Batman thing. I think Batman's mantle sharing is in a weird place compared to the Flashes. You can't say there is only one Flash or even one main Flash since they've all had lengthy and impactful runs in the comics. That's why there is more nuance in the discussion with Batman. He's too big compared to any of the Flashes, but the stand ins have popular stories and fans even among people whose default opinion is Batman = Bruce

We can end the series right now if anyone likes.

After all, the true Superman died alongside Siegel and Shuster. Everyone after is just a copy.

Nah, they are all named "Clark Kent". Less copies/legacies than just reimaginings of the same guy

It's why Earth-1 Clark isn't considered a legacy of Earth-2 Clark. How can he be a legacy of himself?

[Sacred Knight]

We can end the series right now if anyone likes.

After all, the true Superman died alongside Siegel and Shuster. Everyone after is just a copy.

True. But copies based off the original concept--i.e utilizing that character just molding him and evolving him in somewhat differing ways--and doing what they're doing now creating a cheaply developed new character to take the role, I consider two very different things.