How do you separate the artist from the work?

[maninthemacintosh1606]

I still watch all kinds of old wrestling. Including Hulk Hogan. my dad at one point in his younger days was a house show wrestler. Traveled the local circuit got beat up and made the other guys look good. Or he would do a show for the NWA or whoever came to town when they need a filler. He would win every once in awhile but not against any one important. He would tell me all about hanging with some of the older wrestlers and has some cool stories. He has all kinds of phots in a photo album. Sadly he quit doing that by the time I was born because he had a family and needed real income and a real job and he hurt his knee bad when he pushed himself too hard training for a try out with The NWA. But even after he stopped preforming he still did get back stage and hang for some shows when someone he worked with or someone who booked him was running the show or came to town. I met a few of the older wrestlers including Hulk Hogan. Who was a bit of a blow hard but it was really cool to meet him, (Met him three times and he was always pretty cool with me.) i even got to go back stage with him when Wcw came to town years ago with the Souled out Pay Per View. Sadly those days are gone as he doesnt know anyone in the business anymore and try as hard as I can I just cant get into the new stuff.

So when I watch classic wrestling matches I think of the joy on my dads face as he tells his stories and getting to hang and meet up with these big foul mouthed sweaty yet pretty cool guys. I dont think of how they are racist, or sexist or what ever.

Doing the job! Pin me, pay me!

[maninthemacintosh1606]

I blame the parents of the kids more. Much more. But you know $$ rules, sadly.

if anyone is familiar with norm macdonald here, this one is for you: the worst thing about it is the hypocrisy!

[babyblob]

Doing the job! Pin me, pay me!

That was pretty much it. it was something he enjoyed because he grew up around it. My grandpa was a part time wrestler and booking agent and such in his youth. my dad wanted to go big but his injury and kids got in the way. That is why my middle name is "Dream Killer." He does like to joke around how if it wasnt for a lack of looks, body, and talent he could have been the next Rock.

So yea a lot of people bitch about wrestlers and the industry but my family has some pretty good memories of it. my dad does know the dark side it was even worse back then, but his time his stories, my own limited time. It will always be a source of great joy me even if I dont really watch it now.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Simple - why shouldn't I? Why should I care? I'm not condoning anything, I'm barely supporting them and I'm also supporting all the other normal people who made the work, so...why should I give a ****? I just want to be entertained. Other peoples' irl morality has no baring on mine.

The problem with modern day entertainment is that it goes beyond supporting financially (which, as you say, does support a group of people). When it comes to someone like, say JK Rowling, fans believed that following her on Twitter increases her platform and her ability to spread her unfavorable views. The artist and the work are closer today because of things like that, so it makes it harder to like a work on its own.

It's a case-by-case basis for me, as well. If the person said something stupid or offensive, or has views that I disagree with, I can usually set that aside and still enjoy the work. If the person actually committed a horrible act - Bill Cosby, Gary Glitter, Roman Polanski, etc. - it's tougher for me to ignore.

That's generally how I feel. I'm against homophobia, racism, and other hate speech, but I'm also against censoring views. It's when the artist commits actual crimes and still profits from their work that I start to feel uncomfortable.

[Chris Lang]

In general, I can separate the work from the artist.

I'll still watch The Usual Suspects or X2. I'll still watch Braveheart or Lethal Weapon. I'll still watch a Chris Benoit match. That being said, I recognize the fact that Bryan Singer and Mel Gibson are reprehensible, and Benoit is a monster. I've just come to embrace the horror that the people we looked up to as kids were not who we thought they were.

That being said, Marilyn Manson's version of 'This is Halloween' just came up on my playlist, and I was slightly nauseous listening to it.

I can understand most of your examples, but I for one can't watch a Chris Benoit match knowing that every time he took a blow to the head or used a move involving his head crashing into anything (such as the flying headbutt mentioned elsewhere in this thread), he was contributing to the brain damage that was reported post-mortem that some believe may have been a partial cause of the madness that made him commit the murder/suicide.

I can add Buffy and Joss Whedon to the list of examples there, however.

It was either CTE or Dementia. The autopsy confirmed that "Benoit's brain was so severely damaged it resembled the brain of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient."

But most people agreed that brain damage may have influenced his actions.

Indeed. And since the brain damage may have been caused during those matches, I can't watch them anymore. At least not without cringing.

[stargazer01]

I tend to lay blame at the feet of the perpetrator. The one who actually did bad stuff.

the bad parents are the first to blame. They are supposed to protect their children.

[Chris Lang]

I still love the Mad Max movies even though Mel Gibson is an anti-semite.

I have the complete set of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys DVDs even though Kevin Sorbo is an arrogant right-winger and insurrection supporter.

I love Firefly even though Adam Baldwin was a GamerGate bully long before Whedon's offenses came to light.

Transmetropolitan is still my all-time favorite comic series even though Warren Ellis apparently spent years bluebearding young female creators.

Love the Harry Potter books and movies even though J.K. Rowling is an enthusiastic transphobe.

Still think Ender's Game is a great novel even though Orson Scott Card is a homophobe.

I still have a handful of Ted Nugent and Amboy Dukes songs in my music library even though Ted Nugent is a right-wing racist and gun nut.

I'm pretty sure that my Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible, Avengers and Much Ado About Nothing DVD's aren't going anywhere even though Joss Whedon is a bully and psychological abuser.

I love H.P. Lovecraft's stories even though he was a grade-A racist even by the standards of his time.

Are these the right choices? I dunno, but if I got rid of every piece of pop culture that involved an ******* in some way I'd be alone in an empty apartment with nothing but a Mr. Rogers Neighborhood box set, a Dolly Parton Greatest Hits CD, and a Bob Ross painting. And then I'd wait for the horrible revelations about those three to hit.

Interesting point made. I generally am one of those who views these things on a case-by-case basis, based both on how closely the person was involved with the work, and whether the work was shaped by the same sort of thinking that made them say and do the awful stuff.

In some cases, it might be that some works of those creators will make people more uncomfortable nowadays than other works. Some might still be able to enjoy Bill Cosby's 'Noah' routine, but cringe at the 'Spanish Fly' and wonder why anyone thought it was ever funny in the first place. As for me, I never watched 'The Cosby Show' and have no plans to anytime soon, but I remember his kid's shows like Picture Pages, and I did like the aforementioned 'Noah' routine.

Anyway, I'll still see 'L.A. Confidential', but I won't be seeing 'The Usual Suspects' again anytime soon since Kevin Spacey's character in that movie is a criminal who gets away with it.

[AndrewCrossett]

In some cases, it might be that some works of those creators will make people more uncomfortable nowadays than other works. Some might still be able to enjoy Bill Cosby's 'Noah' routine, but cringe at the 'Spanish Fly' and wonder why anyone thought it was ever funny in the first place. As for me, I never watched 'The Cosby Show' and have no plans to anytime soon, but I remember his kid's shows like Picture Pages, and I did like the aforementioned 'Noah' routine.

My parents had a copy of his "Wonderfulness" album, and his was literally the first comedy I can remember. And of course I grew up with Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids, long before there was a Cliff Huxtable. (I watched the Cosby Show occasionally, though it often came across as too preachy to me.) So his unmasking was probably the beginning of my misanthropic journey to the "the world consists of bad people who get away with it and bad people who don't" view I now have of humanity.

I hope I can get over it someday.

[DanMad1977]

the bad parents are the first to blame. They are supposed to protect their children.

No, dude...the first to blame is always the perpetrator, then we can talk about the parents or whoever has to look out for the victim.

[DanMad1977]

I'll give you an example.

My mom always trusted me with my uncle. She would give me in his care whenever she was at her job and couldn't take care of me. She trusted him because he was a good brother to her, always.

If he would have abused me, could you blame my mother for it? No.

(He never did, just an example)

[Zauriel]

I'll give you an example.

My mom always trusted me with my uncle. She would give me in his care whenever she was at her job and couldn't take care of me. She trusted him because he was a good brother to her, always.

If he would have abused me, could you blame my mother for it? No.

(He never did, just an example)

Du hast Recht. Deine Mutter vertraut ihrem Bruder, weil sie ihn kennt. Sie kennt natürlich die richtige Person. Sie weiß wem sie vertraut.

I apologize but my German is not good. If my German is not understandable, I will say the same words in English.

[stargazer01]

No, dude...the first to blame is always the perpetrator, then we can talk about the parents or whoever has to look out for the victim.

leaving your kid with a close family member is not the same at leaving him with an stranger like a celebrity. I find that very irresponsible. Besides, I wouldn't trust almost anyone with my little kids, no even my brother or cousin or uncle. A lot of child abuse happens with family members, sadly.

[DanMad1977]

Du hast Recht. Deine Mutter vertraut ihrem Bruder, weil sie ihn kennt. Sie kennt natürlich die richtige Person. Sie weiß wem sie vertraut.

I apologize but my German is not good. If my German is not understandable, I will say the same words in English.

Your German is perfect.

[DanMad1977]

leaving your kid with a close family member is not the same at leaving him with an stranger like a celebrity. I find that very irresponsible. Besides, I wouldn't trust almost anyone with my little kids, no even my brother or cousin or uncle. A lot of child abuse happens with family members, sadly.

Yes, its not the same, you are right with this.

[stargazer01]

Yes, its not the same, you are right with this.

but I'm glad your uncle was good to you.