Is (REDACTED) redeemable after Doctor Strange 2? (SPOILER ALERT)

[kingaliencracker]

Curious as to whether fans feel Wanda is redeemable after the events of Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.

Given the totality of the character's arc so far, from AoU through Wandavision, and understanding the tragedy she's experienced...I still think she's past the point of no return in terms of becoming a hero again (provided she didn't actually die at the conclusion of the movie, which I don't believe she did).

Truthfully I'm shocked the remaining Avengers didn't go after her following Westview. I thought Doctor Strange's explanation in DS2 that she eventually did the right thing was a cop-out. But I suppose from the end of Wandavision to the beginning of DS2, they wanted us to believe the character was still an Avenger, albeit a flawed one, to set up the surprise of her turn in DS2.

Anyway, my vote is no. Between Westview and the events of DS2, I think she's firmly planted in the dark side.

[Starter Set]

The "is Wanda Redeemable" question has been in so many thread's titles over the years lol. (for a lot of different reasons)

[kingaliencracker]

For those that are saying she is redeemable, why exactly do you feel that way. Or rather, in what scenario could she actually redeem herself, given her actions in DS2?

[CJStriker]

While I have not decided to see the movie yet myself, The diccusions I have been having about the with others online have been very vocal in details on what happen and breaking it down more then enough, both the good and the bad.

By those long detialed talks, It is an Easy YES for me not just as a fan, but as logic by what the story gave to us with that boils down to simple Possession & Manipulation by the darkhold and by fact of history of other media that have done similiar stories over the decades. For the Record, while I am more possionte in saying this about Wanda, if this is a story ever about anyone else that had a simliar story done to them, I Logically say the very same defense of them as well.

Ad to the factor when she comes to from the Manipulation, she destroys the manipulator in all realties to save others from it. It is an example of the differnce between the true person and the demon they are made into during possession.

It is scatterd threwout MoM that the same happens to everyone(Mostly Stranges) who are effected by the Said Darkhold and have done worst with it, so it is not just a Wanda thing. But still it boils down to manipulation and possessed by the book, so any character, hero or common, effect by such is always given the road to come back and should still stand today.

To give better diccusions on this topic are bellow for further into this, but their are many more around:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6038359

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6040151

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6040546

[80sbaby]

^^^^^^Exactly this. They gave her an "out" when they said the Darkhold corrupted her and she's been through a lot of trauma that makes her sympathetic. Some individual fans may not forgive/like her but the general audience will be able to forgive and forget pretty easily. She just needs to show up and have a big "Save the Day" moment to redeem herself to the audience.

[kingaliencracker]

While I have not decided to see the movie yet myself, The diccusions I have been having about the with others online have been very vocal in details on what happen and breaking it down more then enough, both the good and the bad.

By those long detialed talks, It is an Easy YES for me not just as a fan, but as logic by what the story gave to us with that boils down to simple Possession & Manipulation by the darkhold and by fact of history of other media that have done similiar stories over the decades. For the Record, while I am more possionte in saying this about Wanda, if this is a story ever about anyone else that had a simliar story done to them, I Logically say the very same defense of them as well.

Ad to the factor when she comes to from the Manipulation, she destroys the manipulator in all realties to save others from it. It is an example of the differnce between the true person and the demon they are made into during possession.

It is scatterd threwout MoM that the same happens to everyone(Mostly Stranges) who are effected by the Said Darkhold and have done worst with it, so it is not just a Wanda thing. But still it boils down to manipulation and possessed by the book, so any character, hero or common, effect by such is always given the road to come back and should still stand today.

To give better diccusions on this topic are bellow for further into this, but their are many more around:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6038359

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6040151

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6040546

I don't know if I buy that as a complete exoneration of Wanda's actions.

If I willingly take drugs that put me in an altered state of mind, and I wind up killing someone in a car accident, my sobering up afterwards doesn't make me innocent of the accident.

Wanda knew the Darkhold was dangerous and chose to use its spells anyway because she wanted her children back - children she knew didn't actually exist, at least in her universe. Her resulting corruption was a side-effect - it's not like the book found her and made her use it.

[80sbaby]

I don't know if I buy that as a complete exoneration of Wanda's actions.

If I willingly take drugs that put me in an altered state of mind, and I wind up killing someone in a car accident, my sobering up afterwards doesn't make me innocent of the accident.

Wanda knew the Darkhold was dangerous and chose to use its spells anyway because she wanted her children back - children she knew didn't actually exist, at least in her universe. Her resulting corruption was a side-effect - it's not like the book found her and made her use it.

Did Wanda actually know the book was dangerous, though? I don't recall any warning in WandaVision about it, just that it was a powerful book of spells.

[kingaliencracker]

^^^^^^Exactly this. They gave her an "out" when they said the Darkhold corrupted her and she's been through a lot of trauma that makes her sympathetic. Some individual fans may not forgive/like her but the general audience will be able to forgive and forget pretty easily. She just needs to show up and have a big "Save the Day" moment to redeem herself to the audience.

Maybe the general audience will. I mean, we pretty much root for whomever the story tells us to for the most part.

Again, I go back to the fact that the Avengers should have gone after Wanda after Westview. That was a pretty evil act in of itself that essentially had no consequences because as Strange put it, she did the right thing at end. I don't buy that as a rationale for why the Avengers let her go and eventually become corrupted by the Darkhold, but that was the excuse we were given.

So you compound Westview, her willingly using the Darkhold, and then slaughtering dozens of people to essentially murder a child? Yeah, I can't see her "save the day" and all's forgiven.

[CJStriker]

I don't know if I buy that as a complete exoneration of Wanda's actions.

If I willingly take drugs that put me in an altered state of mind, and I wind up killing someone in a car accident, my sobering up afterwards doesn't make me innocent of the accident.

Wanda knew the Darkhold was dangerous and chose to use its spells anyway because she wanted her children back - children she knew didn't actually exist, at least in her universe. Her resulting corruption was a side-effect - it's not like the book found her and made her use it.

Did Wanda actually know the book was dangerous, though? I don't recall any warning in WandaVision about it, just that it was a powerful book of spells.

This has also been a dicussion we have had as well, it is the only really point from Wandavision that has clear usage we can find in MoM. It was a book used by Agatha for many centuries and seem to not effect her negative is anyways to in-story character views. It was also the only sourse of info on Wanda's Scarlet Witch status and powers, so by logic with her at the end saying she must control this power but has no really friends or starting poing other then that book, it is the only logical answer to be given. In WandaVision, not having our Comic Book Capts on, just by its story alone the book was not a sourse of corruption or possesion.

Wanda is a Character that is wondering in the dark forest by herself with no guide or help in all these areas, one can only take what is aviable to them to survive and use the best judgement in what they see to what it gives.

By all accounts the book in WandaVision did not seem to have those capabulities or warnings of such danger.

[C_Miller]

I don't think anyone is truly irredeemable to a certain degree. At the end of the day, she was corrupted by evil incarnate at least in the events of Doctor Strange 2. To be honest, her actions in WandaVision are probably harder for her to redeem just in the sense that she was working more or less in her right mind or at least not being corrupted by evil incarnate. And even then, Agatha was somewhat pulling the strings.

Loki has done committed just as many heinous acts, if not worse and he never really had any corrupting influences and we we accept him. Heck, in the case of the Loki show, protagonist variant doesn't even have the benefit of the character development from Dark World, Ragnarok and Infinity War.

[kingaliencracker]

Did Wanda actually know the book was dangerous, though? I don't recall any warning in WandaVision about it, just that it was a powerful book of spells.

Pretty sure Agatha told her the book had corrupting capabilities. She definitely tells her it's the book of the damned, which I think is a pretty clear warning.

[Havok83]

^^^^^^Exactly this. They gave her an "out" when they said the Darkhold corrupted her and she's been through a lot of trauma that makes her sympathetic. Some individual fans may not forgive/like her but the general audience will be able to forgive and forget pretty easily. She just needs to show up and have a big "Save the Day" moment to redeem herself to the audience.

IMO, thats a copout. She keeps doing downright f--ked up things yet there is always an excuse to handwave away her actions

Age of Ultron - she starts off as a villian, working with Ultron against the Avengers. Its okay though bc she had been manipulated by Hydra

Civil War - she ends up killing a bunch of people when she flung that bomb into the air. Its okay though bc it was an accident that she didnt mean to cause.

WandaVision - she enslaves a town in a hex reliving her nightmares. Its okay though bc she was just grieving Vision

MOM - She goes full villian, terrorizes a teenage girl across the multiverse, murders a legion of sorcerers, the Illuminati, possesses and uses a variant version of herself as a living weapon. Its okay though bc she just wanted her kids and well the Darkhold was corrupting her

There needs to be consequences to ones actions and they shouldnt just handwave her actions yet again. I feel like WV was the last time that could have worked but they went in a different direction with her

[80sbaby]

Maybe the general audience will. I mean, we pretty much root for whomever the story tells us to for the most part.

Again, I go back to the fact that the Avengers should have gone after Wanda after Westview. That was a pretty evil act in of itself that essentially had no consequences because as Strange put it, she did the right thing at end. I don't buy that as a rationale for why the Avengers let her go and eventually become corrupted by the Darkhold, but that was the excuse we were given.

So you compound Westview, her willingly using the Darkhold, and then slaughtering dozens of people to essentially murder a child? Yeah, I can't see her "save the day" and all's forgiven.

Well I'm talking about the general audience, not individuals such as yourself. And, again, you're ignoring that she was basically overtaken by an evil force, the Darkhold.

[chicago_bastard]

I hope she won't be. I enjoyed Olsen chewing the scenery and want her to come back as a villain. Let her team-up with Blanchett's Hela, now that would be something to behold.

[kingaliencracker]

I don't think anyone is truly irredeemable to a certain degree. At the end of the day, she was corrupted by evil incarnate at least in the events of Doctor Strange 2. To be honest, her actions in WandaVision are probably harder for her to redeem just in the sense that she was working more or less in her right mind or at least not being corrupted by evil incarnate. And even then, Agatha was somewhat pulling the strings.

Loki has done committed just as many heinous acts, if not worse and he never really had any corrupting influences and we we accept him. Heck, in the case of the Loki show, protagonist variant doesn't even have the benefit of the character development from Dark World, Ragnarok and Infinity War.

Loki is a good counterargument, and one I don't have a great retort for other than Loki saw his actions as heroic (kind of a means-justifies-end situation). I also would argue that the most evil thing we saw Loki directly do was kill Coulson, and Coulson did have a gun he was going to use on Loki (albeit ineffectively, in all probability). And honestly, Loki did have a much better character arc in the MCU.

Wanda's actions from Westview to DS2, however, were inherently selfish and unheroic. She wasn't trying to do the right thing - she was trying to mitigate her grief.