Has Superman ever been written with the Spider-man formula?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Actually a very good point, and considering Jason Aaron with Heroes Reborn (2021 version) is saying that if the Avengers didn't exist, Peter Parker would be Marvel's equivalent of Jimmy Olsen, never mind that Peter's debut as Spider-Man came two years before Marvel first put together the Avengers . . .

My feelings about Spider-Man and the rest of the Marvel Universe, and that of most readers historically, I might add, is this line from another movie voiced by the actor who introduced Spider-Man.

[LifeIsILL]

Peter Parker dated the secretary in the office, often fought and talked back to JJJ and in the original Ditko run, negotiated a pay rise after the MP-Saga.

Pretty sure Jimmy has done all that too regardless if Peter Parker existed or not.

And thanks to Heroes Reborn, the 2021 version, Peter is gonna be Marvel's Jimmy Olsen. That said, I do see your point, that Peter is (almost) a version of Jimmy who serves as the main hero/protagonist of the story instead of a member of the supporting cast or a would-be sidekick to the main hero/protagonist.

Jimmy Olsen is more of a Superman fanboy than a sidekick. If he were a sidekick he'd be out there next to him fighting crime and whatnot.

[Frontier]

Peter happens to do some of the weird stuff to other people, and is an active figure with agency whereas Jimmy just stumbles onto messes and buttdials Apokolips.

That's part of Jimmy's charm .

Jimmy Olsen is more of a Superman fanboy than a sidekick. If he were a sidekick he'd be out there next to him fighting crime and whatnot.

He helps Superman when he can (like Lois does) so I'd say he counts .

[Huntsman Spider]

My feelings about Spider-Man and the rest of the Marvel Universe, and that of most readers historically, I might add, is this line from another movie voiced by the actor who introduced Spider-Man.

I can definitely respect that.

Pretty sure Jimmy has done all that too regardless if Peter Parker existed or not.



Jimmy Olsen is more of a Superman fanboy than a sidekick. If he were a sidekick he'd be out there next to him fighting crime and whatnot.

That was why I phrased it as "would-be sidekick."

[Digifiend]

Actually a very good point, and considering Jason Aaron with Heroes Reborn (2021 version) is saying that if the Avengers didn't exist, Peter Parker would be Marvel's equivalent of Jimmy Olsen, never mind that Peter's debut as Spider-Man came two years before Marvel first put together the Avengers . . .

One year. Amazing Fantasy #15 is from 1962, and Avengers #1 from 1963.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

One year. Amazing Fantasy #15 is from 1962, and Avengers #1 from 1963.

That's long enough to establish seniority.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Anyway, Spider-Man first appeared in The Avengers title in Issue #3, and the issue makes it clear that the Avengers are low on the totem pole compared to the titles that have come before.

The Avengers #3 - 1.jpgThe Avengers #3 - 2.jpg

The way Spider-Man treats Iron Man's projection here is especially hilarious given that IM comes to Spider-Man as a supplicant seeking the help of the established hero, and Spider-Man obviously believes his time is too important to deal with riffraff like him.

[Frontier]

Anyway, Spider-Man first appeared in The Avengers title in Issue #3, and the issue makes it clear that the Avengers are low on the totem pole compared to the titles that have come before.

The Avengers #3 - 1.jpgThe Avengers #3 - 2.jpg

The way Spider-Man treats Iron Man's projection here is especially hilarious given that IM comes to Spider-Man as a supplicant seeking the help of the established hero, and Spider-Man obviously believes his time is too important to deal with riffraff like him.

I mean, this was back when Peter/Spider-Man was kind of abrasive and arrogant to everybody, so it's more a characterization thing than meant as an actual condemnation of another title/group and you can see Iron Man going for everybody he can get his hands on.

At least modern Spider-Man would've probably said "sorry."

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, this was back when Peter/Spider-Man was kind of abrasive and arrogant to everybody, so it's more a characterization thing than meant as an actual condemnation of another title/group and you can see Iron Man going for everybody he can get his hands on.

Well it's not arrogant. Peter was in the middle of capturing crooks. Reed Richards basically telling Iron Man that he's busy with an experiment while Susan openly says she's going shopping while Iron Man asks for real help is much ruder...they're basically treating him like some annoying door-to-door salesman.

At least modern Spider-Man would've probably said "sorry."

The point is that the comic treats Spider-Man as Iron Man's senior, peer, and equal...Iron Man comes to Spider-Man for help seeking the Hulk.

[Frontier]

Well it's not arrogant. Peter was in the middle of capturing crooks. Reed Richards basically telling Iron Man that he's busy with an experiment while Susan openly says she's going shopping while Iron Man asks for real help is much ruder...they're basically treating him like some annoying door-to-door salesman.

I mean, he comes off kind of condescending and like he has better things to do, which is how he acted a lot back then.

The point is that the comic treats Spider-Man as Iron Man's senior, peer, and equal...Iron Man comes to Spider-Man for help seeking the Hulk.

I'd say equal since Spidey is just another hero and not even the first one he went after. Nothing there really implies any seniority.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

John Byrne's Superman was essentially Superman written with the Spider-Man formula. And as much as I like that take on Superman, it kinda is just a poor man's Peter Parker. It's arguably part of why Superman hasn't been as successful in recent years.

Also, I don't think the question of 'who debuted first and by how much' matters anymore if we are talking about any of the Silver Age characters. The 616 timeline is so fluid and ever-changing that we can say all the Stan Lee superheroes debuted at about the same time. The only exception to this are the FF, who canonically debuted first before anyone else (not counting Cap in WWII). Even then, the crunched timeline means the FF can only be a year or two ahead of everyone else at most.

[Huntsman Spider]

John Byrne's Superman was essentially Superman written with the Spider-Man formula. And as much as I like that take on Superman, it kinda is just a poor man's Peter Parker. It's arguably part of why Superman hasn't been as successful in recent years.

Also, I don't think the question of 'who debuted first and by how much' matters anymore if we are talking about any of the Silver Age characters. The 616 timeline is so fluid and ever-changing that we can say all the Stan Lee superheroes debuted at about the same time. The only exception to this are the FF, who canonically debuted first before anyone else (not counting Cap in WWII). Even then, the crunched timeline means the FF can only be a year or two ahead of everyone else at most.

Fair enough, especially given that Norman Osborn was doing the "crooked corporate executive-slash-secret supervillain" thing well at least two decades before John Byrne reimagined Superman's archenemy Lex Luthor in that same mold.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

John Byrne's Superman was essentially Superman written with the Spider-Man formula. And as much as I like that take on Superman, it kinda is just a poor man's Peter Parker. It's arguably part of why Superman hasn't been as successful in recent years.

I will say that Superman and Spider-Man as characters have many similarities. No character in DC is more like Spider-Man than Superman, and by that I mean character, I don't mean 'archetype' or other shorthand dogwhistles by which people assume that the specky kid of AF#15 is frozen in amber perpetually.

Spider-Man as a character is constantly hobbled by questions of identity and duality, and that's Superman. Batman for instance has no such duality...it's clear that he's Batman and Bruce Wayne is just a front, and as a rich dude his personal life and supporting cast don't factor at all. Superman likewise has this double life. As he says in STAS, "I am Clark Kent. I NEED to be Clark Kent. I'd go crazy if I was Superman all the time." You can't imagine Bruce saying that about being Batman. So Spider-Man and Superman are fundamentally stories about the hero and his supporting cast, and the villains are secondary. You can do plenty of good to great Superman and Spider-Man stories with just them doing regular stuff hanging out with supporting cast and so on.

Fair enough, especially given that Norman Osborn was doing the "crooked corporate executive-slash-secret supervillain" thing well at least two decades before John Byrne reimagined Superman's archenemy Lex Luthor in that same mold.

In the case of the Byrne stuff, I've never read it all the way through so I can't comment. I will say that Lex Luthor as businessman was inspired by Kingpin in Miller's Daredevil, at least that's what DC writers at the time pointed out. Neil Gaiman called him "skinny Kingpin" (he had to write that version in his BLACK ORCHID Miniseries and later said he prefered Silver Age Superman who you can imprison time and time again but "you can't imprison his mind"). I don't think businessman Lex is a very interesting character compared to Fisk and Osborn (whether Pre-ASM#122 or Post-Clone Saga). To be frank, I actually don't consider Luthor in any version (save for the DCAU of course) to be an especially impressive and compelling villain. There are any number of DC villains and certainly Marvel villains better than him. Doctor Doom had more villainous chemistry with Superman in the Jim Shooter penned crossover than he did with Lex, tbh.

In general I'm not a Lex Luthor fan, and while I accept that he's a classic villain and Superman's arch-enemy in that the consensus favors this too much and too long for this to ever change, I prefer other Superman villains like Bizarro (talk about a character whose potential hasn't been scratched yet), Brainiac, and especially Mr. Mxyzsptlk as Superman's enemies. Contrary to popular belief Superman has a good rogues gallery, actually. It's not as good as Batman's and Spider-Man's of course, but then no other hero can measure to that, and Superman's rogues are better than many other heroes.

When Luthor became President, it didn't produce any good stories or great stories, whereas Osborn becoming Head of HAMMER gave us DeConnick and Rios' OSBORN, "World's Most Wanted" by Fraction/Larocca in Iron Man, Thunderbolts, Dark Reign: Fantastic Four by Hickman.

[Frontier]

I will say that Superman and Spider-Man as characters have many similarities. No character in DC is more like Spider-Man than Superman, and by that I mean character, I don't mean 'archetype' or other shorthand dogwhistles by which people assume that the specky kid of AF#15 is frozen in amber perpetually.

Spider-Man as a character is constantly hobbled by questions of identity and duality, and that's Superman. Batman for instance has no such duality...it's clear that he's Batman and Bruce Wayne is just a front, and as a rich dude his personal life and supporting cast don't factor at all. Superman likewise has this double life. As he says in STAS, "I am Clark Kent. I NEED to be Clark Kent. I'd go crazy if I was Superman all the time." You can't imagine Bruce saying that about being Batman. So Spider-Man and Superman are fundamentally stories about the hero and his supporting cast, and the villains are secondary. You can do plenty of good to great Superman and Spider-Man stories with just them doing regular stuff hanging out with supporting cast and so on.

The thing with Batman is that there's Bruce Wayne the public front and Bruce Wayne the man that defines Batman's humanity. Without that Batman really is just a nutcase in a Batsuit who can't relate to anyone and only cares about the Mission no matter the cost while forgetting what the Mission was actually about.

When Luthor became President, it didn't produce any good stories or great stories, whereas Osborn becoming Head of HAMMER gave us DeConnick and Rios' OSBORN, "World's Most Wanted" by Fraction/Larocca in Iron Man, Thunderbolts, Dark Reign: Fantastic Four by Hickman.

It did lead to an animated film based on Jeph Loeb's Superman/Batman storyline.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I will say that Superman and Spider-Man as characters have many similarities. No character in DC is more like Spider-Man than Superman, and by that I mean character, I don't mean 'archetype' or other shorthand dogwhistles by which people assume that the specky kid of AF#15 is frozen in amber perpetually.

Yes if not for Static, who was more inspired by Spider-Man than literally any other superhero (the term 'Black Peter Parker' arguably applies to Virgil Hawkins even more than it did to Bendis' Miles Morales). But I agree with your overall point.

Fair enough, especially given that Norman Osborn was doing the "crooked corporate executive-slash-secret supervillain" thing well at least two decades before John Byrne reimagined Superman's archenemy Lex Luthor in that same mold.

There are definitely some Marvel influences in Lex Luthor and vice-versa. I mean, while Norman was a corporate tycoon first and Modern Comics didn't exactly reinvent him, I doubt he would have been brought back if not for the success DC was having with Luthor.