3rd Doctor vs Captain Kirk

[Cyke]

I just need to clarify that the Third Doctor practices Venusian Aikido, you uncivilized reversed polarities of the neutron flow.

[Sharpandpointies]

Clarity is good! ^_^

I was talking about the actor and actual Jujutsu, myself. If the Doctor was using Venusian Aikido, good on him. It's what the Wiki says, anyway. ^_^

[master of read]

Yeah, that's closer to what I meant. He was also beaten by Sybok in h2h as well.

general consenous on fighting vulcans hand to hand is.........don't. despite their logical and passive nature, vulcans are stupid strong and agile. i remember when sisko was having a feud with a vulcan captain and he hated the guy for beating him in a baseball game. his then GF cassidy told him why the hell did he challenge a vulcan to a baseball game when their general stats are way higher than a humans.

[big_adventure]

Interesting, your experiences versus my own with regards to Judo. Much of my training in Judo had engagements beginning from just outside reach, and starting with an attempt to get ahold of the other person from a tactically superior position, be it either starting standing 5' apart or starting kneeling 5' apart. No, we didn't need to deal with strikes or the like, not saying that. Just saying we didn't start from 'standard grip on gi' or 'already hands-on' wrt groundwork.

And yes, Judo is definitely a 'sport'. Was made that way by Kano. Not to say, as you say, that Judo can't wreck someone's **** post-haste the moment one person lays hands on the other; striking goes to the crapper when an enthusiastic, experienced grappler gets their hands on someone, and locks/chokes (especially chokes in a 'NHB' style fight) can finish things PDQ.

Regarding the 'slowed falls' - that's interesting. In my school we were taught to throw with as much force as possible - not to try to smear the other person or anything, but to do it correctly and against resistance (because the other person was for-sure trying to stop it). Even in practice there would often be times where we would 'throw your partner with X throw, ten times, as well as possible.' To prevent injury, the only concession was 'holding the arm' to allow their body not to land, for example, on their head. It was also for control and to allow immediate segue into grappling/control/lock/choke - there is an actual practical reason as well. Otherwise we for SURE were not taught to slow the fall; in fact, trying to control the fall, we were taught (and I have experienced) can often throw off the throwee's attempt at ukemi/breakfall, and give a greater chance for injury of one or both people.

I've seen people trying to control the other person's fall end up falling ON their victim at the end of the throw (too much holding on happening - this also happens when the throwee panics and holds on rather than focusing on the landing). This has, in at least one instance, resulted in busted ribs. In my club it was felt it was just better to just throw with full force, trust 'em to breakfall properly, and give them the opportunity to do by holding their arm (while also setting oneself up for immediate groundwork). ^_^ Which is part of the 'you aren't allowed to release your opponent until they are down'.

Though, also, in my school we weren't required to go to the ground with them upon throwing.

Pretty neat, the differences one sees in different schools in different places. My own teacher was Masao Takahashi - RIP last year - who was of a more older breed of Judoka. Which, sigh, means I was studying Judo at the same time in the same club as Justin Trudeau. Never really met him, though I suppose I might have coached/helped train him a few times; he was multiple belts behind me, and I recall a few instances of being assigned to teach white and yellow belts while he was in the club. I for sure remember the guys in suits with shades on watching the class.

JJ, not something I've done, though we have people here who have (yourself, Nik, Miburo - who was quite an expert, as I understand).

That is very interesting. I never took pure judo, and know what I know from watching my kids. And yeah, as far as "slowing the falls" you are right of course, you a) have to put in max effort to unbalance a skilled foe who wants to maintain balance and b) your effort to control them going down could absolutely interfere with them protecting themselves. What I was really going with was the "mandated" maintain of control. You have to maintain the arm or the collar or what have you, which in and of itself can reduce the violence of the fall. In JJ, was oochigari'd by someone notably more skilled than I who also had a pretty crappy attitude, during move practice. And there was no attempt to maintain anything by this douchebag. I hit the ground hard, and quite suddenly. Fortunately I'm good enough with breakfalls and fortunately I didn't leave the mat or hit anyone else's foot or knee or anything. It still knocked the wind out of me. While I generally would prefer to maintain control of an arm or neck to move straight to submission, well, he had at least 3 seconds where I couldn't have done a damn thing to stop him anyway.

Very interesting that you started constantly out of contact. I guess the difference of generations. Also, judo in France is pretty competitive, so a lot of training here would tend to focus on competition rules, and that might explain how my kids trained here. Their teacher is quite skilled - I helped their classes out a couple of times and demo'd some moves for the kids with him, and I'll simply say that I'd have no interest in grappling with him for real, despite me weighing a solid 15kg more than he does, being physically a fair bit stronger, and not being "unskilled" by any stretch. No thank you sir, even I would bet on him in such a contest.

[big_adventure]

I just need to clarify that the Third Doctor practices Venusian Aikido, you uncivilized reversed polarities of the neutron flow.

I knew it was venusian something. I'll take a half-point.

[Jcogginsa]

In terms of the actual match, I recall that Venusian Aikido has some pressure point stuff too

[big_adventure]

In terms of the actual match, I recall that Venusian Aikido has some pressure point stuff too

I definitely recall that from the novelizations. I don't remember seeing it in the show, but that was a looooooooong time ago (my memory of written words from 40 years ago is unsurprisingly better then my memory of bad choreography on British children's television).

[Sharpandpointies]

That is very interesting. I never took pure judo, and know what I know from watching my kids. And yeah, as far as "slowing the falls" you are right of course, you a) have to put in max effort to unbalance a skilled foe who wants to maintain balance and b) your effort to control them going down could absolutely interfere with them protecting themselves. What I was really going with was the "mandated" maintain of control. You have to maintain the arm or the collar or what have you, which in and of itself can reduce the violence of the fall. In JJ, was oochigari'd by someone notably more skilled than I who also had a pretty crappy attitude, during move practice. And there was no attempt to maintain anything by this douchebag. I hit the ground hard, and quite suddenly. Fortunately I'm good enough with breakfalls and fortunately I didn't leave the mat or hit anyone else's foot or knee or anything. It still knocked the wind out of me. While I generally would prefer to maintain control of an arm or neck to move straight to submission, well, he had at least 3 seconds where I couldn't have done a damn thing to stop him anyway.

Understood. It's worth noting that a throw where the arm or lapel is held, against an UNSKILLED opponent (ie, someone who hasn't practiced breakfalls like mad and is used to applying them in chaotic situations) is still going to flatten them. Bust them up. Leave them helpless.

But yeah, throwing someone without controlling them can lead to people being helpless for a short time or badly injured. I just like having my hands on them or throwing them in such a way where I get to keep my hands on them while simultaneously hitting them with the ground in such a way that's going to make a proper breakfall somewhat more difficult.

There's a way to throw someone with Ousotogari that's going to bounce the back of their head off the ground regardless; a really good breakfall likely just mitigates the impact somewhat.

Very interesting that you started constantly out of contact. I guess the difference of generations. Also, judo in France is pretty competitive, so a lot of training here would tend to focus on competition rules, and that might explain how my kids trained here. Their teacher is quite skilled - I helped their classes out a couple of times and demo'd some moves for the kids with him, and I'll simply say that I'd have no interest in grappling with him for real, despite me weighing a solid 15kg more than he does, being physically a fair bit stronger, and not being "unskilled" by any stretch. No thank you sir, even I would bet on him in such a contest.

Interesting. In Canada, unless things have changed, in competitions people start from breaks at a distance, and must re-engage (ie, come to grips) on their own. There can be a lot of jockeying for that first grip (and penalties issued if someone is being a dick about it).

Agreed with regards to 'highly skilled grapplers versus larger people who are less skilled'. It's not everything, but the bigger the skill gap, the greater the possible weight. I've mentioned before that in one of my old clubs, I would hit the ground with people who outweighed me by in some cases 50-80 lbs (I was the smallest man in the club at that time, I think), and won the vast majority of my grappling fights with them. Of course, it got harder the more I trained them. ^_^ And the guy 80lbs heavier than me that I used to choke out, he's been doing BJJ for the last ten years, so...yeah, he'd murder me now. ^_^

Of course, weight makes a HUGE difference as the skill gap narrows. One dude who weighed about 220 had a ton of experience in real fights. We'd hit the ground and most of the time he'd manage to pin me with his weight, something he used to do with people he fought. Occasionally I'd manage to get him to tap, but most of the time I'd eventually just gas out after a couple of minutes of struggling. :P

[big_adventure]

Understood. It's worth noting that a throw where the arm or lapel is held, against an UNSKILLED opponent (ie, someone who hasn't practiced breakfalls like mad and is used to applying them in chaotic situations) is still going to flatten them. Bust them up. Leave them helpless.

But yeah, throwing someone without controlling them can lead to people being helpless for a short time or badly injured. I just like having my hands on them or throwing them in such a way where I get to keep my hands on them while simultaneously hitting them with the ground in such a way that's going to make a proper breakfall somewhat more difficult.

There's a way to throw someone with Ousotogari that's going to bounce the back of their head off the ground regardless; a really good breakfall likely just mitigates the impact somewhat.



Interesting. In Canada, unless things have changed, in competitions people start from breaks at a distance, and must re-engage (ie, come to grips) on their own. There can be a lot of jockeying for that first grip (and penalties issued if someone is being a dick about it).

Agreed with regards to 'highly skilled grapplers versus larger people who are less skilled'. It's not everything, but the bigger the skill gap, the greater the possible weight. I've mentioned before that in one of my old clubs, I would hit the ground with people who outweighed me by in some cases 50-80 lbs (I was the smallest man in the club at that time, I think), and won the vast majority of my grappling fights with them. Of course, it got harder the more I trained them. ^_^ And the guy 80lbs heavier than me that I used to choke out, he's been doing BJJ for the last ten years, so...yeah, he'd murder me now. ^_^

Of course, weight makes a HUGE difference as the skill gap narrows. One dude who weighed about 220 had a ton of experience in real fights. We'd hit the ground and most of the time he'd manage to pin me with his weight, something he used to do with people he fought. Occasionally I'd manage to get him to tap, but most of the time I'd eventually just gas out after a couple of minutes of struggling. :P

All of that sounds exactly right. The differences between the practices are interesting, and as I mentioned above 99% of my French judo experience comes from my kids' classes, and it's entirely possible that they specifically practice like that to avoid injuries or illegal moves for the youngsters. The other 1% is just occasionally watching Teddy Riner destroy people and make them look silly for trying to stop him from doing so.

In all of my training, we were always taught to try to control a limb on a takedown, as you say, to interrupt breakfalls (not really accepted in judo comps) and to proceed directly into submission and control moves. But there is something crazy violent and intimidating to... not doing that.

Yeah, we had a good long chat about you in your classes, and that's exactly correct: weight/strength and skill are like two separate axes of a graph. A large enough skill discrepancy can make up for a lot of mass and strength, but as skill approaches, that tolerance decreases dangerously. I hear from women I know all the time "I should take a self defense class in case someone messes with me" - my reply is "you weigh 50kg - you'd need to study for years and years for that to save you against someone weighing 25+ kg more. Better to learn to run really fast, yell really loud, or, if desperate, go for something vital."

[Sharpandpointies]

In all of my training, we were always taught to try to control a limb on a takedown, as you say, to interrupt breakfalls (not really accepted in judo comps) and to proceed directly into submission and control moves. But there is something crazy violent and intimidating to... not doing that.

Truth. I've been Tomoe nage'd into a wall by someone who let go. I hit it like I was in a cartoon - flat on the wall along my back, head down, feet up. Slide/fell down and landed on my head. Amazingly did not get injured.

Of course, he was close enough to the wall to do that, he was close enough that had he held on my feet/ankles would have smashed into the wall about 75% through the throw which...might have busted something.

Yeah, we had a good long chat about you in your classes, and that's exactly correct: weight/strength and skill are like two separate axes of a graph. A large enough skill discrepancy can make up for a lot of mass and strength, but as skill approaches, that tolerance decreases dangerously. I hear from women I know all the time "I should take a self defense class in case someone messes with me" - my reply is "you weigh 50kg - you'd need to study for years and years for that to save you against someone weighing 25+ kg more. Better to learn to run really fast, yell really loud, or, if desperate, go for something vital."

Thought about this kind of thing a lot over the years. One or two self-defense classes are going to be garbage, I am totally with you. Almost worthless, unless they're teaching stuff like 'how to spot potential issues' and 'how to set yourself up to run away', that kind of thing.

But a woman taking a Judo class for a year, or practicing at any kind of school that actually gives resistance training, non-point sparring, etc...assholes who jump a woman tend to be the same kind of guys (TEND TO) who give up if the woman fights back and makes them work (cowards, don't want to get caught, etc). And if it's not that kind of *******, if it's one who isn't going to stop no matter what, better they have some training (whereupon I would also advise stuff like 'if you're really worried, carry a tac-folder with which you have received a little training as well, because nothing shuts down a dude attacking faster than getting Loki-style SURPISE stuck with a knife and bleeding all over the place').

mcirafymkev11.jpg

ON TOP of the whole 'learn to run fast and yell loud'. ^_^ Because that's always the first choice, total agreement, with the second being 'can you get a weapon?' or 'can you run him over with your car?' <-- somewhat facetious, but not as much as one would think.

Of course, the issue there is time commitment, finding a school that can teach something of value, etc. Learning to put something into fighting and getting over the fear/freeze/flail aspect takes time and some lumps. So the person has to actually be interested in the learning, not 'learning 'cause maybe it's a good idea'.

[big_adventure]

long quote

It will come as no shock that I agree with you completely.

That "nuance" (a year or more of consistent training versus 6 sessions at the local fitness center) is important: I've explained it. I've offered to teach a girlfriend how to use a stick or a sap or a knife, but the commitment level was always a waning after 45 minutes. Leading to things like "I'll just kick him in the junk." To which I'd happily reply, "go for it, try as hard as you can to do that to me, I won't even fight you, I'll give you 5 minutes." She got tired before my junk got kicked. Sure, I had bruises on my thigh, shin and forearm from blocks, but she had trouble walking for 2 days. It's hard to kick a non-idiot opponent in the junk when you don't understand misdirection and how to use it in combat.

The best bet is to be aware of surroundings and do your best to get away from ones that feel sketchy. Outside of that, yeah, just be as difficult target. If you have to go into dangerous areas, be prepared.

And yes, the Spyderco between two ribs is almost guaranteed to give you the window you need to escape, though if it doesn't

[Harbinger19]

Given the whole judo discussion I thought I’d throw in (puns) my US experience.

My instructor was a fairly high level competitor in Germany (we are blessed that someone that skilled came to KY, as the judo scene is pretty weaksauce in the States and in rural America particularly) and throughout 8 years or so of training he taught me both controlled and uncontrolled methods of throwing.

The control I think he related mostly to situations like kata-demonstration, i.e. how to make your partner look good on their upper brown belt/shodan tests doing the Nage no Kata*, as well as when you have a partner of significantly different size. Like if I who was a 5’11” 180lb male was going with our little 5’ nothing 90 lb girl I’d adjust my force (which I’m sure everyone does, not trying to claim exception.) That and sometimes we’d have people with injuries or getting back into shape who we’d ease into it.

Randori not so much but he was a competitor back in the Neil Adams era where morote-was allowed and we had the smaller scores like koka. Reason I bring that up...

He (and I personally agree with this) was also not a fan of throwing yourself completely off-balance to go for the score and mentioned that a more real-world applicable scoring system would require tori to maintain posture while throwing uke.

*Honestly the way he taught it, I find doing randori with even highly skilled guys with 30+ lbs on you is way easier than doing an aesthetically respectable Nage no Kata without screwing up.

He also had us double up the mats a couple times and practice street/self defense throwing, i.e. pick someone up with o-goshi then drop them at full height, defense against common grapples like bear hugs and headlocks. Good stuff.

I was never a competitor but I always enjoyed the self-defense sessions. I do wonder sometimes if learning the controlled method of sparing made me hold back too much sometimes but I was always more concerned with not getting hurt than winning anything.

[big_adventure]

Given the whole judo discussion I thought I’d throw in (puns) my US experience.

My instructor was a fairly high level competitor in Germany (we are blessed that someone that skilled came to KY, as the judo scene is pretty weaksauce in the States and in rural America particularly) and throughout 8 years or so of training he taught me both controlled and uncontrolled methods of throwing.

The control I think he related mostly to situations like kata-demonstration, i.e. how to make your partner look good on their upper brown belt/shodan tests doing the Nage no Kata*, as well as when you have a partner of significantly different size. Like if I who was a 5’11” 180lb male was going with our little 5’ nothing 90 lb girl I’d adjust my force (which I’m sure everyone does, not trying to claim exception.) That and sometimes we’d have people with injuries or getting back into shape who we’d ease into it.

Randori not so much but he was a competitor back in the Neil Adams era where morote-was allowed and we had the smaller scores like koka. Reason I bring that up...

He (and I personally agree with this) was also not a fan of throwing yourself completely off-balance to go for the score and mentioned that a more real-world applicable scoring system would require tori to maintain posture while throwing uke.

*Honestly the way he taught it, I find doing randori with even highly skilled guys with 30+ lbs on you is way easier than doing an aesthetically respectable Nage no Kata without screwing up.

He also had us double up the mats a couple times and practice street/self defense throwing, i.e. pick someone up with o-goshi then drop them at full height, defense against common grapples like bear hugs and headlocks. Good stuff.

I was never a competitor but I always enjoyed the self-defense sessions. I do wonder sometimes if learning the controlled method of sparing made me hold back too much sometimes but I was always more concerned with not getting hurt than winning anything.

We really need a like button on this forum.

[Sharpandpointies]

That "nuance" (a year or more of consistent training versus 6 sessions at the local fitness center) is important: I've explained it. I've offered to teach a girlfriend how to use a stick or a sap or a knife, but the commitment level was always a waning after 45 minutes. Leading to things like "I'll just kick him in the junk." To which I'd happily reply, "go for it, try as hard as you can to do that to me, I won't even fight you, I'll give you 5 minutes." She got tired before my junk got kicked. Sure, I had bruises on my thigh, shin and forearm from blocks, but she had trouble walking for 2 days. It's hard to kick a non-idiot opponent in the junk when you don't understand misdirection and how to use it in combat.

I blame Hollywood.

And yes, the Spyderco between two ribs is almost guaranteed to give you the window you need to escape, though if it doesn't

That's why you don't stop with one. ^_^ It's stab-dragcut, stab-dragcut, and the moment some distance is clear, cut-cut-cut-cut whatever is closest, preferably hands/arms/uncovered stuff you don't need to reach past their hands to get (unless opportunity knocks). Just like anything else, don't do the job half-way (hence the 'get some training with the knife, even if it's just a little'). <- 9 years of Arnis says hello.

I mean, if you're fighting Michael Myers, yeah, there's a problem. Otherwise, most people when confronted by bleeding wounds, shock, reduced capacity, and a crazy person still trying to put distance between themselves and their assailant by use of knife will probably back off.

Ugly discussion, but reality is reality, and if someone's in fear of life or limb, then have at it. Up hereabouts, a few years back (like...10?) someone pulled a girl (age 14-15, I can't recall) into a van. Luckily she had a penknife, inserted it into him, and in the ensuing confusion got out of the van and off he drove. Happy ending.

As an aside, I also blame Hollywood for the garbage of 'but they will take your knife away and use it against you!' :P Possible? Sure, but with even a little training the odds of that sharply drop. Red Sharpie test demonstrates this rather well. ^_^

Given the whole judo discussion I thought I’d throw in (puns) my US experience.

Coolness.

My instructor was a fairly high level competitor in Germany (we are blessed that someone that skilled came to KY, as the judo scene is pretty weaksauce in the States and in rural America particularly) and throughout 8 years or so of training he taught me both controlled and uncontrolled methods of throwing.

Good stuff.

The control I think he related mostly to situations like kata-demonstration, i.e. how to make your partner look good on their upper brown belt/shodan tests doing the Nage no Kata*, as well as when you have a partner of significantly different size. Like if I who was a 5’11” 180lb male was going with our little 5’ nothing 90 lb girl I’d adjust my force (which I’m sure everyone does, not trying to claim exception.) That and sometimes we’d have people with injuries or getting back into shape who we’d ease into it.

Nage no Kata...ugh, thank you for that memory. Never really enjoyed it, probably because I was a young person with low self-confidence (shocker!) and demoing stuff in front of people made me feel really...bleah.

Randori not so much but he was a competitor back in the Neil Adams era where morote-was allowed and we had the smaller scores like koka. Reason I bring that up...

They've taken Koka out? O_o

He (and I personally agree with this) was also not a fan of throwing yourself completely off-balance to go for the score and mentioned that a more real-world applicable scoring system would require tori to maintain posture while throwing uke.

Makes sense for scoring. Though I'm totally fine with throwing myself as well, situationally.

*Honestly the way he taught it, I find doing randori with even highly skilled guys with 30+ lbs on you is way easier than doing an aesthetically respectable Nage no Kata without screwing up.

More fun as well, even if it meant getting bounced around.

He also had us double up the mats a couple times and practice street/self defense throwing, i.e. pick someone up with o-goshi then drop them at full height, defense against common grapples like bear hugs and headlocks. Good stuff.

Ahhh, o-goshi, my favorite. Speaking of using o-goshi as self-defense/real situation, have you ever tried the 'hopping and then falling with the guy' version? I mean, you start it, and when it comes to the critical point you literally throw yourself into the air with him and land on him? NOT something for tournaments, mind.

I was never a competitor but I always enjoyed the self-defense sessions. I do wonder sometimes if learning the controlled method of sparing made me hold back too much sometimes but I was always more concerned with not getting hurt than winning anything.

I hated competitions. Did decently in them when forced to attend, but again - self-confidence, so it was just massive pressure (self-generated) to succeed.

[Powerboy]

You guys are making me regret that at least half of my overall martial arts time was spent in Aikido, which I've realized was bordering on useless for real self-defense.

We did have an head instructor who believed a martial art was worthless if it did not work as self-defense and he emphasized the -jitsu side rather than the -do side but he was already in his sixties and only taught once a week. He once did a match against a boxer friend of his who wanted to do it and neither could get any real advantage on the other but that he could step in against a boxer and stalemate is saying a lot.

But, in general, average class, there was a lack of any real resistance training which I've come to feel is the biggest weakness any martial art could have.

Going with Sharp's story about getting thrown into a wall, there was a woman in the class who was obsessed with the idea that what she did had to work and she meant right now. Mind you, we were maybe yellow belts at the time. She was doing a throw and oblivious to the fact that we were five feet from a wall. Rather than throwing me some other direction, she tried to throw me at the wall. She didn't have the joint locked properly so I just didn't let her throw me. I remember she was so mad, not because I resisted but because it made her realize none of her moves worked. Everyone was just cooperating.

Obviously, cooperation is essential to learn but there is a point where real resistance training is required.

As to the main question, the 3rd Doctor versus Kirk, tough call. I remember the Doctor Who fight choreography being incredibly slow but I don't remember much about the details. Kirk's fights moved faster but were incredibly unrealistic. Probably Kirk just for having more fights.