3rd Doctor vs Captain Kirk

[3pointshooter]

I was watching old you tube videos of the Third Doctor throwing hands. How would his Akido fare against Captain. Kirk Martial arts skills.

[Cyke]

I was watching old you tube videos of the Third Doctor throwing hands. How would his Akido fare against Captain. Kirk Martial arts skills.

Something that isn't emphasized a lot because it's not that kind of show, are that Time Lords sometimes have greater than average-human stats (though not superhuman), including strength (including older-looking Doctors having the strength of a much younger-looking human), durability (such as electrocution, radiation, and poison gas), and timing/coordination. And then that's in addition to the more alien characteristics, like a respiratory system that prevents death from strangulation or can survive a little bit longer in the vacuum of space, or having two hearts. I imagine those will be factors in the Third Doctor's favor.

Now, granted Kirk's been able to stand toe-to-toe with the likes of Klingons and Vulcans, both of whom are about 3x as strong as a human, and he famously lived by outmaneuvering a Gorn captain.

[master of read]

Something that isn't emphasized a lot because it's not that kind of show, are that Time Lords sometimes have greater than average-human stats (though not superhuman), including strength (including older-looking Doctors having the strength of a much younger-looking human), durability (such as electrocution, radiation, and poison gas), and timing/coordination. And then that's in addition to the more alien characteristics, like a respiratory system that prevents death from strangulation or can survive a little bit longer in the vacuum of space, or having two hearts. I imagine those will be factors in the Third Doctor's favor.

Now, granted Kirk's been able to stand toe-to-toe with the likes of Klingons and Vulcans, both of whom are about 3x as strong as a human, and he famously lived by outmaneuvering a Gorn captain.

for klingons, it's not that hard for humans to match up to them.

as for kirk going toe to to with vulcans, i wouldn't go that far. he has tangled with spock a few times but those times, he's had to stick and move than outright fight him.

[Beadle]

Kirk also clearly has superhuman stats, lifting huge boulders over his head in the heat of battle as if they were made of polystyrene. That’s pretty impressive.

[Cyke]

as for kirk going toe to to with vulcans, i wouldn't go that far. he has tangled with spock a few times but those times, he's had to stick and move than outright fight him.

Yeah, that's closer to what I meant. He was also beaten by Sybok in h2h as well.

[Sharpandpointies]

I forget a lot about the 3rd Doctor's fight sequences, other than the fact that he was pretty darned good with Judo.

[The MunchKING]

I forget a lot about the 3rd Doctor's fight sequences, other than the fact that he was pretty darned good with Judo.

Judo is about redirecting opponents' momentum and hitting them with throws right? Well if we're talking Shatner Kirk, his Kirk-Fu chops were often *******phed and very all in on the attack. Kirk would have to fight a lot smarter than he usually does against a Judo master.

[The MunchKING]

Really? Why are old-timey methods of communication swear-filtered now?

[Sharpandpointies]

Judo is about redirecting opponents' momentum and hitting them with throws right? Well if we're talking Shatner Kirk, his Kirk-Fu chops were often *******phed and very all in on the attack. Kirk would have to fight a lot smarter than he usually does against a Judo master.

Something like that.

It's a lot of standing grappling and throwing via controlling your opponent properly (the redirection of momentum thing is something that gets said a lot, but I find it evokes this idea of 'someone throws punch, you catch it and send them flying', which is more like optimistic Aikido than Judo) as well as grappling on the ground, holds, chokes and armlocks.

Kirk occasionally used one of Judo's more flashy throws, but he didn't do it nearly as well as the 3rd Doctor, as I recall.

As for the 'tele-graph'[sp] word being swear-filtered, I have no idea why; I've found the same thing in my own posts, starting years back. Weird, eh?

[big_adventure]

I know that some people on the board know this, but Judo in particular doesn't really train blocks, parrys, redirection of punches or kicks because those things don't exist in Judo. It's a very defined art that always starts in some kind of clinch or grasp, and has very specific limits on what kinds of moves you are allowed to make from there.

ISTR the Doctor's fighting chops were explained as Venusian jiujitsu or something, but that may have only been in the novelizations - I read a few when I was a young'un.

[Sharpandpointies]

I know that some people on the board know this, but Judo in particular doesn't really train blocks, parrys, redirection of punches or kicks because those things don't exist in Judo. It's a very defined art that always starts in some kind of clinch or grasp, and has very specific limits on what kinds of moves you are allowed to make from there.

ISTR the Doctor's fighting chops were explained as Venusian jiujitsu or something, but that may have only been in the novelizations - I read a few when I was a young'un.

Honestly, it could actually be Jujutsu. Judo is derived from Jujutsu, many throws are similar, and there are strikes in JJ. Having not taken it myself, I cannot speak further on the matter...but given the actor had worked with Naval Intelligence, it's always possible he had some training.

As an interesting aside, traditional Judo does deal with striking a little once one reaches Dan ranking. But it's rather basic, and not trained with sparring, though arguably a touch better than most striking martial arts deal with the idea of 'grappling' or 'weapons'. ^_^

[big_adventure]

Honestly, it could actually be Jujutsu. Judo is derived from Jujutsu, many throws are similar, and there are strikes in JJ. Having not taken it myself, I cannot speak further on the matter...but given the actor had worked with Naval Intelligence, it's always possible he had some training.

As an interesting aside, traditional Judo does deal with striking a little once one reaches Dan ranking. But it's rather basic, and not trained with sparring, though arguably a touch better than most striking martial arts deal with the idea of 'grappling' or 'weapons'. ^_^

I took JJ and yeah, we spent a ton of time on defending strikes and starting sequences off of them. Naturally - it's a fighting system or science (jitsu) as opposed to an "art" (do). There were no points and no real matches outside of sparring (this was before MMA was everywhere - this is back in the UFC 1 days). Judo is very different - it's very popular in France, and each of my kids takes or has taken it. It's definitely a... sporty art? It doesn't mean it isn't physical or violent, or that a judoka couldn't ruin your day if they got their hands on you. I would run screaming like a child if Teddy Riner looked at me with the slightest hint of violence in his eyes, much like I would if Tyson or Silva or whomever did the same. But all of the training, at least prior to Dan level as you say, is based on sequences starting from engagement. Either standing hands on gi collar and sleeve, or on ground with one or the other in dominant position. In 6 years of judo, my youngest has never once faced even a simulated or *******phed strike. In addition, you aren't allowed to release your opponent on takedowns until they are down, you are basically required to slow their fall to avoid injury, and you have to go down with them. Obviously, this could be quite different from what I'd do in a fight on the street.

[Sharpandpointies]

I took JJ and yeah, we spent a ton of time on defending strikes and starting sequences off of them. Naturally - it's a fighting system or science (jitsu) as opposed to an "art" (do). There were no points and no real matches outside of sparring (this was before MMA was everywhere - this is back in the UFC 1 days). Judo is very different - it's very popular in France, and each of my kids takes or has taken it. It's definitely a... sporty art? It doesn't mean it isn't physical or violent, or that a judoka couldn't ruin your day if they got their hands on you. I would run screaming like a child if Teddy Riner looked at me with the slightest hint of violence in his eyes, much like I would if Tyson or Silva or whomever did the same. But all of the training, at least prior to Dan level as you say, is based on sequences starting from engagement. Either standing hands on gi collar and sleeve, or on ground with one or the other in dominant position. In 6 years of judo, my youngest has never once faced even a simulated or *******phed strike. In addition, you aren't allowed to release your opponent on takedowns until they are down, you are basically required to slow their fall to avoid injury, and you have to go down with them. Obviously, this could be quite different from what I'd do in a fight on the street.

Interesting, your experiences versus my own with regards to Judo. Much of my training in Judo had engagements beginning from just outside reach, and starting with an attempt to get ahold of the other person from a tactically superior position, be it either starting standing 5' apart or starting kneeling 5' apart. No, we didn't need to deal with strikes or the like, not saying that. Just saying we didn't start from 'standard grip on gi' or 'already hands-on' wrt groundwork.

And yes, Judo is definitely a 'sport'. Was made that way by Kano. Not to say, as you say, that Judo can't wreck someone's **** post-haste the moment one person lays hands on the other; striking goes to the crapper when an enthusiastic, experienced grappler gets their hands on someone, and locks/chokes (especially chokes in a 'NHB' style fight) can finish things PDQ.

Regarding the 'slowed falls' - that's interesting. In my school we were taught to throw with as much force as possible - not to try to smear the other person or anything, but to do it correctly and against resistance (because the other person was for-sure trying to stop it). Even in practice there would often be times where we would 'throw your partner with X throw, ten times, as well as possible.' To prevent injury, the only concession was 'holding the arm' to allow their body not to land, for example, on their head. It was also for control and to allow immediate segue into grappling/control/lock/choke - there is an actual practical reason as well. Otherwise we for SURE were not taught to slow the fall; in fact, trying to control the fall, we were taught (and I have experienced) can often throw off the throwee's attempt at ukemi/breakfall, and give a greater chance for injury of one or both people.

I've seen people trying to control the other person's fall end up falling ON their victim at the end of the throw (too much holding on happening - this also happens when the throwee panics and holds on rather than focusing on the landing). This has, in at least one instance, resulted in busted ribs. In my club it was felt it was just better to just throw with full force, trust 'em to breakfall properly, and give them the opportunity to do by holding their arm (while also setting oneself up for immediate groundwork). ^_^ Which is part of the 'you aren't allowed to release your opponent until they are down'.

Though, also, in my school we weren't required to go to the ground with them upon throwing.

Pretty neat, the differences one sees in different schools in different places. My own teacher was Masao Takahashi - RIP last year - who was of a more older breed of Judoka. Which, sigh, means I was studying Judo at the same time in the same club as Justin Trudeau. Never really met him, though I suppose I might have coached/helped train him a few times; he was multiple belts behind me, and I recall a few instances of being assigned to teach white and yellow belts while he was in the club. I for sure remember the guys in suits with shades on watching the class.

JJ, not something I've done, though we have people here who have (yourself, Nik, Miburo - who was quite an expert, as I understand).

[Sharpandpointies]

Forum has been filtering 'tele-graphed' for years now. Annoying. Nice to see it's not just me.

[Sharpandpointies]

As an aside, not saying strikes can't work in grappling range or that strikers can't learn enough grappling to allow them to manage in grappling situations while figuring out how to land actual strikes, with power. Can be done, as MMA has pointed out.

Just...as early UFC's also pointed out, pure strikers who get nabbed by a skilled grappler tend to end up in a REALLY rough place. Without specific training and position, strikes lack power on the ground and a grappler can either shut them down or use the politely offered arm as a lever to remove said arm for mounting above their mantel.

Good fighter should be trained in all venues - strikes, grappling, and sure, weapons if we're moving outside of fighting events. ^_^