3rd Doctor vs Captain Kirk

[Sharpandpointies]

You guys are making me regret that at least half of my overall martial arts time was spent in Aikido, which I've realized was bordering on useless for real self-defense.

It has always seemed (to me) somewhat optimistic against a resisting opponent, and often not practiced with resistance, as you note. <-- the main reason.

I can totally see it being useful if practiced with resistance AND in conjunction with something else; there are aspects to it that would be quite useful, even to my un-aikido-trained eye (and I'm a big advocate of cross-training, period). And I'm 100% sure that aki-jutsu and so forth - back when this stuff was being used against people in fights - didn't look at all the same, with more stripped down, basic fundamentals.

What else did you study? I remember you talking about Aikido, which was always interesting.

We did have an head instructor who believed a martial art was worthless if it did not work as self-defense and he emphasized the -jitsu side rather than the -do side but he was already in his sixties and only taught once a week. He once did a match against a boxer friend of his who wanted to do it and neither could get any real advantage on the other but that he could step in against a boxer and stalemate is saying a lot.

Indeed.

As always, it's less (not completely, but less) about the art and more about how one practices, and this guy sounds like he practiced with some zeal against resistance.

But, in general, average class, there was a lack of any real resistance training which I've come to feel is the biggest weakness any martial art could have.

Going with Sharp's story about getting thrown into a wall, there was a woman in the class who was obsessed with the idea that what she did had to work and she meant right now. Mind you, we were maybe yellow belts at the time. She was doing a throw and oblivious to the fact that we were five feet from a wall. Rather than throwing me some other direction, she tried to throw me at the wall. She didn't have the joint locked properly so I just didn't let her throw me. I remember she was so mad, not because I resisted but because it made her realize none of her moves worked. Everyone was just cooperating.

Obviously, cooperation is essential to learn but there is a point where real resistance training is required.

We get what we practice for. We practice for long-distance running, we're going to suck at a sprint. We practice field hockey, while some of it will carry over to ice hockey a whole lot won't.

We practice nothing but forms and compliant technique repetition, that's what we get - skill at fighting people who are compliant. Might help a wee bit in a physical altercation against someone with zero experience or fight-training, and no size advantage.

As you say, some compliance is necessary to practice some stuff, especially at the start; it's a poor partner who punches people in the nose every time they try something. ^_^ And even forms have a point; they can, to SOME extent, teach smooth, balanced, precise motion (as long as they're practiced with that intention in mind).

But at the same time, the increasing resistance training, the unrehearsed stuff, the open sparring (light-to-heavy-to-full contact, depending on someone's comfort zone!)...that's of more use when actually trying to apply one's practice against someone who isn't interested in getting thrown/getting punched/whatever. And will also help iron in whatever one learns from the compliant stuff/forms/whatever.

Same deal with weapons, after all. Some clubs that laud themselves as being ultra-realistic when it comes to fighting, who have actual sparring and heavy-to-full contact training, who would be really nasty when it comes to an empty handed fight...utterly fall to pieces when confronted by a knife, in that they've never trained realistically against people armed with even practice knives. It's like they forget what they say about other clubs when it comes to weapons, and assume that compliant, practiced techniques, or no training against weapons at all, will be enough. Hilarious example: some highly skilled BJJ guy on rec.martialarts stating that against a knife he would 'just pull guard'.

[Everyone who has knife experience] Don't do that. O_o

Blind spots are everywhere. I'm 100% sure I have them myself (because they're blind spots, I don't know about them until something kicks me in the head, so to speak).

I don't actually blame clubs, these days, so long as they're not selling BS or con-jobs. People don't need to learn to fight like we used to, not so much. And learning to fight is a painful, scary, and sometimes damaging process, depending on how close one wants to get to practicing 'for real'. So clubs that just do light workouts, forms, pointsparring...the people there don't really WANT to roll around trying to push in each other's faces, and I completely don't blame them. I regret a lot of the injuries I have, and ones I've dished out.

At the same time, has taught me a lot.

However people look at me weird and back away slowly when part of my answer of 'what did you train in?' involves explaining Arnis. So I have learned to read the room a little before going into details these days.

As to the main question, the 3rd Doctor versus Kirk, tough call. I remember the Doctor Who fight choreography being incredibly slow but I don't remember much about the details. Kirk's fights moved faster but were incredibly unrealistic. Probably Kirk just for having more fights.

A dissenting opinion! Always good to see.

[wjowski]

Kirk had some pretty crazy moves, including that scissors-takedown he did on Khan.

EDIT:

And a fireman's carry!

[Sharpandpointies]

He uses double-fisted punches.

...sometimes with laced fingers.

I'm never voting Kirk. ^_^

[The MunchKING]

As to the main question, the 3rd Doctor versus Kirk, tough call. I remember the Doctor Who fight choreography being incredibly slow but I don't remember much about the details. Kirk's fights moved faster but were incredibly unrealistic.

Kirk Vs. Gorn would disagree. It was slower than a Slakoth doped up on Tranquilizers.

[Powerboy]

It has always seemed (to me) somewhat optimistic against a resisting opponent, and often not practiced with resistance, as you note. <-- the main reason.

I can totally see it being useful if practiced with resistance AND in conjunction with something else; there are aspects to it that would be quite useful, even to my un-aikido-trained eye (and I'm a big advocate of cross-training, period). And I'm 100% sure that aki-jutsu and so forth - back when this stuff was being used against people in fights - didn't look at all the same, with more stripped down, basic fundamentals.

There was a guy in class who got mugged one night in a parking lot and, contrary to what you would think, he didn't do what he practiced. He was struggling with one guy when he saw the other pull a knife. You know that arm break over the shoulder that Mr. Seagal was always doing? Well, when he saw that knife, the adrenaline kicked in and he took a move that he trained to use only as a throw against a cooperating opponent and, instead, broke the guy's arm. The guy with the knife ran- which was fortunate. But the fear caused it to switch to the -jitsu version which he had not trained for but it was just doing it without holding back. So there is a core there that can work but trying it against an opponent with real resistance training rather than a guy in a parking lot who probably never fought anyone with training and experience is another thing.

What else did you study? I remember you talking about Aikido, which was always interesting.

I studied Kuk Sool Won with an instructor who came out of Hapkido and mixed a lot. He had fought as a professional kick-boxer at one time and trained a guy who was a contender in Middleweight kick-boxing. We did sparring but it was points sparring, light contact. He would often open it to grappling along with strikes and I always faired better then. People in mostly striking styles don't like getting grappled but that's where I was at my best. He taught a lot of grappling which most people hated. Taking a punch is different than being in an excruciating joint lock.

Indeed.

As always, it's less (not completely, but less) about the art and more about how one practices, and this guy sounds like he practiced with some zeal against resistance.

We get what we practice for. We practice for long-distance running, we're going to suck at a sprint. We practice field hockey, while some of it will carry over to ice hockey a whole lot won't.

We practice nothing but forms and compliant technique repetition, that's what we get - skill at fighting people who are compliant. Might help a wee bit in a physical altercation against someone with zero experience or fight-training, and no size advantage.

As you say, some compliance is necessary to practice some stuff, especially at the start; it's a poor partner who punches people in the nose every time they try something. ^_^ And even forms have a point; they can, to SOME extent, teach smooth, balanced, precise motion (as long as they're practiced with that intention in mind).

But at the same time, the increasing resistance training, the unrehearsed stuff, the open sparring (light-to-heavy-to-full contact, depending on someone's comfort zone!)...that's of more use when actually trying to apply one's practice against someone who isn't interested in getting thrown/getting punched/whatever. And will also help iron in whatever one learns from the compliant stuff/forms/whatever.

Same deal with weapons, after all. Some clubs that laud themselves as being ultra-realistic when it comes to fighting, who have actual sparring and heavy-to-full contact training, who would be really nasty when it comes to an empty handed fight...utterly fall to pieces when confronted by a knife, in that they've never trained realistically against people armed with even practice knives. It's like they forget what they say about other clubs when it comes to weapons, and assume that compliant, practiced techniques, or no training against weapons at all, will be enough. Hilarious example: some highly skilled BJJ guy on rec.martialarts stating that against a knife he would 'just pull guard'.

[Everyone who has knife experience] Don't do that. O_o

I've never experienced realistic training versus knives other than the instructor saying that, if you have a coat or shirt and the time, pull it off and wrap your arm, create a shield. If you've got a gun, shoot him. Mostly, it was overhand or stab straight in, only once and leave it extended. Yeah, very realistic.


Blind spots are everywhere. I'm 100% sure I have them myself (because they're blind spots, I don't know about them until something kicks me in the head, so to speak).

I don't actually blame clubs, these days, so long as they're not selling BS or con-jobs. People don't need to learn to fight like we used to, not so much. And learning to fight is a painful, scary, and sometimes damaging process, depending on how close one wants to get to practicing 'for real'. So clubs that just do light workouts, forms, pointsparring...the people there don't really WANT to roll around trying to push in each other's faces, and I completely don't blame them. I regret a lot of the injuries I have, and ones I've dished out.
[/quote]

On that note, by the time I started Aikido, I was 46 and 51 when I got my first degree black belt, which was now 12 years ago.

My best friend and I were going to an Aikido class while, a mere 50 feet away, there was a class his wife was taking. She was about ten years younger than him. One night, I was sick so, rather than go to class, I walked over and watched her class which was Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I remember thinking that there was no way my body could take that. Shoulder issues, lower back injury, sciatica. I concluded this was a martial art for young people. In fact, the main reason I stopped practicing was that I was so tired of always having something wrong with my shoulders along with the sheer pain of having to constantly drop to the mat and get back up. Well, dropping was okay. Getting back up constantly with lower back pain, not so much fun.

At the same time, has taught me a lot.

However people look at me weird and back away slowly when part of my answer of 'what did you train in?' involves explaining Arnis. So I have learned to read the room a little before going into details these days.

A dissenting opinion! Always good to see.

Well, as usual. some lack of memory. I don't remember much about how precise and true to reality the 3rd Doctor's moves were.

[Powerboy]

Kirk Vs. Gorn would disagree. It was slower than a Slakoth doped up on Tranquilizers.

Well, I meant that Kirk moved faster.

[Sharpandpointies]

There was a guy in class who got mugged one night in a parking lot and, contrary to what you would think, he didn't do what he practiced. He was struggling with one guy when he saw the other pull a knife. You know that arm break over the shoulder that Mr. Seagal was always doing? Well, when he saw that knife, the adrenaline kicked in and he took a move that he trained to use only as a throw against a cooperating opponent and, instead, broke the guy's arm. The guy with the knife ran- which was fortunate. But the fear caused it to switch to the -jitsu version which he had not trained for but it was just doing it without holding back. So there is a core there that can work but trying it against an opponent with real resistance training rather than a guy in a parking lot who probably never fought anyone with training and experience is another thing.

Phew. Lucked out - bad situation, and I'm glad things went the way they did. Too easily could have gone the wrong way.

I studied Kuk Sool Won with an instructor who came out of Hapkido and mixed a lot. He had fought as a professional kick-boxer at one time and trained a guy who was a contender in Middleweight kick-boxing. We did sparring but it was points sparring, light contact. He would often open it to grappling along with strikes and I always faired better then. People in mostly striking styles don't like getting grappled but that's where I was at my best. He taught a lot of grappling which most people hated. Taking a punch is different than being in an excruciating joint lock.

Light contact sparring is better than zero sparring, man (though it will ingrain some bad habits, no doubt). And grappling...yeah, grappling can be messy. It can be a lot more intimidating to a lot of people as well, due to proximity, struggling with no sense of being able to step back and open a distance, that kind of thing.

I've never experienced realistic training versus knives other than the instructor saying that, if you have a coat or shirt and the time, pull it off and wrap your arm, create a shield. If you've got a gun, shoot him. Mostly, it was overhand or stab straight in, only once and leave it extended. Yeah, very realistic.

Without getting into too much detail, I'll just say that realistic training against knives is both very depressing and very liberating for one's ego (in that one really no longer has an ego wrt to their awesome skill against knives after doing some realistic training).

On that note, by the time I started Aikido, I was 46 and 51 when I got my first degree black belt, which was now 12 years ago.

My best friend and I were going to an Aikido class while, a mere 50 feet away, there was a class his wife was taking. She was about ten years younger than him. One night, I was sick so, rather than go to class, I walked over and watched her class which was Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I remember thinking that there was no way my body could take that. Shoulder issues, lower back injury, sciatica. I concluded this was a martial art for young people. In fact, the main reason I stopped practicing was that I was so tired of always having something wrong with my shoulders along with the sheer pain of having to constantly drop to the mat and get back up. Well, dropping was okay. Getting back up constantly with lower back pain, not so much fun.

Yeah... :P Sounds miserable. Sorry, man.

Started Judo when I was about 10 or 11. I'm 50 now. Had I continued with Judo, I would feel pretty confident I could still pull it off. Now? After years away from it, my body doesn't work like that any more and the injuries have piled up. I could pull it out of my hat if in need, but it wouldn't be as good as it used to be. ^_^ I guess I could start BJJ, probably, but I'd need to be REALLY careful. And would probably get hurt from time to time. And would need to pick my sparring partners carefully to avoid getting injured.

The full-contact stuff is a young person's game. I can still manage light-to-medium contact, and weapon sparring, but by our ages, we should be refining skill and learning to do more, efficiently, with what we have. ^_^ Which is where the real 'magic' starts.

Last time I did heavy-to-full-contact stuff was about twelve years ago. Not a good end, but a worthwhile experience.

[Sharpandpointies]

Should have a martial arts thread where we could just discuss martial arts crap. ^_^

[big_adventure]

Indeed.

Last time I did full contact was a good long while ago - turned 49 two weeks ago and I seriously cannot imagine ever wanting to go full contact again. I'd be happy to spar with light contact, I'd be happy to be a practice dummy for someone demoing a class, but at my age, I might be able to get up after one hard fall, but by the fifth, yeah, nah. And I say this as someone who exercises at least 4 or 5 days a week, who still climbs mountains, etc. The fight game is a young person's game.

Yet another digression, but when I was 39, my older son (who was 2 and a half) asked for a skateboard. I, thought, cool, I used to be a skate rat, I'll teach him. So I bought a decent kid sized board for him, and grown up one for me. I started going to the local skate park and re-learning all the things I had mastered when I was 19. Sure enough, with 6 months, I was back doing kickflips, long high ollies, half pipes with good amplitude, all kinds of fun. And I also kept injuring myself. I always wore a helmet, but one day, I tweaked my wrist, so I wore guards. And managed to tweak my thumb at an angle the guard couldn't protect. I fell, bruised a knee. Bought kneepads. Fell and bruised a hip, bought hip protectors. Fell and somehow hurt the my thigh below the hip protector, I still don't know how. Bruised an elbow. Bought elbow guards. Somehow hurt my forearm below the guard but above the wrist guard.

Then... I hung the board up and said "you know, it's been a good run, let's leave this to people whose bodies can survive it because the just don't know any better."

The fight game is like that. Father Time is undefeated.

[Powerboy]

Indeed.

Last time I did full contact was a good long while ago - turned 49 two weeks ago and I seriously cannot imagine ever wanting to go full contact again. I'd be happy to spar with light contact, I'd be happy to be a practice dummy for someone demoing a class, but at my age, I might be able to get up after one hard fall, but by the fifth, yeah, nah. And I say this as someone who exercises at least 4 or 5 days a week, who still climbs mountains, etc. The fight game is a young person's game.

Yet another digression, but when I was 39, my older son (who was 2 and a half) asked for a skateboard. I, thought, cool, I used to be a skate rat, I'll teach him. So I bought a decent kid sized board for him, and grown up one for me. I started going to the local skate park and re-learning all the things I had mastered when I was 19. Sure enough, with 6 months, I was back doing kickflips, long high ollies, half pipes with good amplitude, all kinds of fun. And I also kept injuring myself. I always wore a helmet, but one day, I tweaked my wrist, so I wore guards. And managed to tweak my thumb at an angle the guard couldn't protect. I fell, bruised a knee. Bought kneepads. Fell and bruised a hip, bought hip protectors. Fell and somehow hurt the my thigh below the hip protector, I still don't know how. Bruised an elbow. Bought elbow guards. Somehow hurt my forearm below the guard but above the wrist guard.

Then... I hung the board up and said "you know, it's been a good run, let's leave this to people whose bodies can survive it because the just don't know any better."

The fight game is like that. Father Time is undefeated.

Yeah, I just turned 63. With the sciatica, walking three blocks is painful. Standing up for a prolonged time isn't fun. My old instructor also does a "martial art" that is a totally choreographed fight between the staff and the bokken. No throws, no falling and getting up. But it's purely an art form which is fine but, as I told him, that it involves standing and moving for two hours would be very painful and I get enough of that at work.

[Sharpandpointies]

Indeed.

Last time I did full contact was a good long while ago - turned 49 two weeks ago and I seriously cannot imagine ever wanting to go full contact again. I'd be happy to spar with light contact, I'd be happy to be a practice dummy for someone demoing a class, but at my age, I might be able to get up after one hard fall, but by the fifth, yeah, nah. And I say this as someone who exercises at least 4 or 5 days a week, who still climbs mountains, etc. The fight game is a young person's game.

Agreed. I might manage some falls myself. I might also have my lower back problems flare up, and likely would be on the ground. COVID has exacerbated those simply by dint of me sitting more, darn it all.

Would love to get into a class and either teach or provide assistance, or even just get together with a bunch of my peers from my last school and practice with each other (which is what we were doing before COVID). But...not possible.

Yet another digression, but when I was 39, my older son (who was 2 and a half) asked for a skateboard. I, thought, cool, I used to be a skate rat, I'll teach him. So I bought a decent kid sized board for him, and grown up one for me. I started going to the local skate park and re-learning all the things I had mastered when I was 19. Sure enough, with 6 months, I was back doing kickflips, long high ollies, half pipes with good amplitude, all kinds of fun. And I also kept injuring myself. I always wore a helmet, but one day, I tweaked my wrist, so I wore guards. And managed to tweak my thumb at an angle the guard couldn't protect. I fell, bruised a knee. Bought kneepads. Fell and bruised a hip, bought hip protectors. Fell and somehow hurt the my thigh below the hip protector, I still don't know how. Bruised an elbow. Bought elbow guards. Somehow hurt my forearm below the guard but above the wrist guard.

Then... I hung the board up and said "you know, it's been a good run, let's leave this to people whose bodies can survive it because the just don't know any better."

The fight game is like that. Father Time is undefeated.

It's amazing how it goes.

When I was in my teens, I did Judo, fell of my bicycle so regularly it became a running joke in my family. Never a problem.

In my twenties, I started to bruise. In my early thirties, the bruises no longer washed off in the shower. The heavy-full contact fighting I started then began to injure me. My wife was not happy, and almost vetoed my martial arts practice. In my forties, I ended up with a bloody rotator cuff injury from my teacher grabbing my arm and pulling it into the 'correct' place (and then me ignoring the growing pain and stiffness for a good month and a half until it was literally drop-to-my-knees agonizing). And all my old injuries crept back to say 'hey, remember me from when you did xyz in your teens/twenties?'

I can't play that game any more, and really don't want to. Had enough of the heavy-full contact stuff, with a few bad experiences along with the good, and simply couldn't manage it nowadays. Plus my wife would kill me if the fighting didn't.

And light contact doesn't give a lot in my opinion (though still far more than just forms and bland technique practice). Ranging, some decent defensive reflexes against that kind of thing, helping with the smooth motion and precision under pressure, etc. But people going hard fight completely differently than people sparring light contact, which tends to more resemble an overly polite boxing spar with a lot of jabs and light combos. Buuuut...it does give SOMETHING and it's kind of all we have any more, right? Other than 'three second sparring' and that kind of thing (where we can go a little heavier and try for stuff we might go for in a real fight with lowered fear of escalation and someone getting hurt...buuut also has the issue of 'it's unrealistic').

Bleah. Conundrum of the realistic fight training: how does one approach realistic fighting in training without the ugly realism of someone getting injured? :P Especially as we age.

Yeah, I just turned 63. With the sciatica, walking three blocks is painful. Standing up for a prolonged time isn't fun. My old instructor also does a "martial art" that is a totally choreographed fight between the staff and the bokken. No throws, no falling and getting up. But it's purely an art form which is fine but, as I told him, that it involves standing and moving for two hours would be very painful and I get enough of that at work.

Ow, ow. I'm sorry, man.

[big_adventure]

Yeah, I just turned 63. With the sciatica, walking three blocks is painful. Standing up for a prolonged time isn't fun. My old instructor also does a "martial art" that is a totally choreographed fight between the staff and the bokken. No throws, no falling and getting up. But it's purely an art form which is fine but, as I told him, that it involves standing and moving for two hours would be very painful and I get enough of that at work.

I can only imagine. I've always treated my body well in terms of exercise and nutrition, and terribly in terms of abuse. So many falls, so many impacts, so many days spent on the sides of cliffs, so many cliffs jumped off of on skis and snowboards. A day where I don't feel pain is weird for me - because it just never happens. Someone will say to me "my back hurts" and I'm "you mean just today? Try three herniated discs in my lumbar and three c-spine." They go "my elbow hurts" "you mean just one?"

So yeah, I feel you. And I know that if I take a week off exercise (it happens, various reasons), I'll start to lose what use I have as half of my body seizes up on me. Covid is keeping me calm this week (did some yoga yesterday, but reeeeeaaaaaaallly gentle), but I know as soon as I can, I'm going to push myself, and I'm going to cripple myself, and I'm going to tell myself I'm stupid for doing that, and I'm going to do it again.

[Sharpandpointies]

I can only imagine. I've always treated my body well in terms of exercise and nutrition, and terribly in terms of abuse. So many falls, so many impacts, so many days spent on the sides of cliffs, so many cliffs jumped off of on skis and snowboards. A day where I don't feel pain is weird for me - because it just never happens. Someone will say to me "my back hurts" and I'm "you mean just today? Try three herniated discs in my lumbar and three c-spine." They go "my elbow hurts" "you mean just one?"

So yeah, I feel you. And I know that if I take a week off exercise (it happens, various reasons), I'll start to lose what use I have as half of my body seizes up on me. Covid is keeping me calm this week (did some yoga yesterday, but reeeeeaaaaaaallly gentle), but I know as soon as I can, I'm going to push myself, and I'm going to cripple myself, and I'm going to tell myself I'm stupid for doing that, and I'm going to do it again.

Jeebers. Good to know I'm not alone, and it sounds like overall you might have the worse of the injuries (though the 'I did good with exercise and nutrition, but horribly with injuries' sounds uncomfortably familiar...). Got a few, though.

And the whole 'I take time off exercise'...yeah. For me, it's motivation, especially now. I stop exercising for a week, just getting back to it feels like climbing a damn mountain. The Taiji is keeping me limber - mostly - and along with the other stuff I do in decent shape, but my cardio needs work (now, during Covid).

And you HAVE Covid, ugh. I really hope you come back 100% from it, man.

[Sharpandpointies]

Also, sorry you couldn't continue the skateboarding with your son, big.

[big_adventure]

Jeebers. Good to know I'm not alone, and it sounds like overall you might have the worse of the injuries (though the 'I did good with exercise and nutrition, but horribly with injuries' sounds uncomfortably familiar...). Got a few, though.

And the whole 'I take time off exercise'...yeah. For me, it's motivation, especially now. I stop exercising for a week, just getting back to it feels like climbing a damn mountain. The Taiji is keeping me limber - mostly - and along with the other stuff I do in decent shape, but my cardio needs work (now, during Covid).

And you HAVE Covid, ugh. I really hope you come back 100% from it, man.

Thanks my friend! I'm hoping for positive results. My daughter, the last of us holding out, tested positive today. The kids are mostly all upset to have covid during school break - which I admit is a hell of a waste of both vacation time and excused school absences.

And I'm OK - fever stopped probably at least 36 hours ago (I last took ibuprofen for it on Tuesday at 19h, it's 17h23 on Thursday now). I've got what feels like a medium sinus headache, and a slightly scratchy throat, and that's it. No chills, no soreness, taste and smell are fine, I'm maybe slightly congested, but we're talking less than 5% probably. So I basically had a semi bad 2 days of fever that responded to ibuprofen, and other than that, it's barely a cold. Lucky, really.

Also, sorry you couldn't continue the skateboarding with your son, big.

Honestly, he never fell in love with it, he likes those scooter things, so the boys will ride those, and my daughter and I will skate or rollerblade. Or we all ride bikes. And they all love climbing and skiing, plus I taught them to surf this past summer. My kids are, totally objectively, the most awesome people on the planet.*

*except then they aren't, of course.