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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Gwen Stacy was pretty obscure outside of comics fans for a really long time. The first time she was ever adapted was that weird cameo in one of the AU that the Fox Spider-Man visits in the final season. It was a weird cameo because only Spider-Man readers and fans would get the significance while people who watch the Fox show, and that version of Peter would be confused and have no emotional connection to "random blonde woman an AU version of me married and became a jerk in the process of doing so". Gwen's stock rose thanks to a few comics
    1) MARVELS by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross which came out in 1994 (and really established a lot of the mythology of her death being the end of the Silver Age).
    2) SPIDER-MAN BLUE by Loeb/Sale (which came out in 2002)

    These two comics and stories became well known and revived her in a big way. Weissman's Spectacular (whose Gwen was ironically enough based on Bendis-Bagley's Ultimate Mary Jane in terms of being a childhood friend and neighbor to Peter) contributed to the Gwenaissance until Emma Stone (the future Cruella DeVille) arrived and raised her stock, and that led to Spider-Gwen.

    Which is why people should always be careful when they trot out stuff by ignoring the scaffolding and new structures, and pretending that there's some single version of Spider-Man that's always there to access at all times. Gwen was unknown among the wider Spider-Man fandom for a good chunk of the character's history and had no footprint in the wider media, and the only reason she feels like she's a big deal is because of sentimental nostalgia-laden comics in the mid-90s onwards with a kind of retro-flourish style that appeals to non-comics readers.

    I mean that's always the issue with this kind of debate, whenever we have this back and forth about the legacy of the marriage, it's always against someone who takes on the mantle of a kind of originalist and purist who never concedes that their claim is far from certain and that others, including those who support the marriage, have equal (and I'd argue far greater) claims to fidelity to the original concept of Spider-Man and what made him successful, and with evidence to back it up.
    Great post. And yeah, I too think that Spectacular Spider-Man and Emma Stone were the main catalysts in Gwen's recent rise in popularity. Spider-Gwen is practically an entire different take on Gwen but she was able to capitalize on the Gwen brand and grow it from there due to those previous two versions.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 02-19-2021 at 06:55 PM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Great post. And yeah, I would argue that Spectacular Spider-Man and Emma Stone were the main catalysts in Gwen's recent rise in popularity. Spider-Gwen is practically an entire different take on Gwen but she was able to capitalize on the Gwen brand and grow it from there due to those previous two versions.
    I don't know. Revolutionary_Jack also argued that Gwen was a white supremacist so I have hard time he can be objective with this.

  3. #108
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I don't know. Revolutionary_Jack also argued that Gwen was a white supremacist so I have hard time he can be objective with this.
    As do I. RJ is a well-documented dedicated MJ stan. We all have our basis and Jack's is rather obvious. I for one freely admit I prefer Peter with Felicia or Gwen (in the past).
    Last edited by Celgress; 02-19-2021 at 11:17 PM.
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  4. #109
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    The first 2 arcs of Renew Your Vows were really great but it took a nosedive even before they aged Annie May up. As soon as Gerry Conway jumped ship because Marvel wanted to impose big marketing driven stuff like Venom Mary Jane on what he was doing. Nobody can just commit to something cool longterm because it's always on to the next thing or throwing a variant cover idea into the actual plots to boost sales.
    Yeah, which was a shame, and I say that as someone who liked seeing VenoMJ finally become kind of canon . . . aside from that one bit in the Spider-Man/Power Pack miniseries from back in the day . . .
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    I never left so it's a moot point for me.



    A lot of people were really liking Spencer's run and were hoping Last Remains would be the thing that puts it over the top but the whole storyline lasted sooo long and nothing really happened. I also think that fans were banking everything on that story reversing OMD and when that didn't happen they are starting to write off the whole thing even though we're clearly more than end of Act 1 phase of run. I've heard more legitimate complaints that the run doesn't really try anything new (or at least it hasn't yet) and relies a lot on pulling on Spider-Man history including much maligned stuff.
    I'm thinking whether to drop the book for financials and I found Last Remains disappointing for that and the pacing.

  6. #111
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    Interesting stories...
    Last edited by Darthfury78; 02-21-2021 at 11:05 AM.

  7. #112
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    I never left. Sure, Iíll go months without reading the book, despite buying it due to my OCD, but I never dropped it.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    As do I. RJ is a well-documented dedicated MJ stan. We all have our basis and Jack's is rather obvious. I for one freely admit I prefer Peter with Felicia or Gwen (in the past).
    I admit Revolutionary Jack knows Spider-Man better then me ( I admitted it), I am also a hard core MJ supporter. But I am not anti Gwen. I believe MJ as the best choice based on MJ herself, not on any weakness of Felicia, Gwen or with the exception of Cindy anyone else. Saying choose MJ because the others suck or looking to poke holes in a character is weakening the case for MJ. Basically she is the least negative option not the best woman. I consider MJ the best and so far superior choice, because she ( when written well ) brings to the table everything you could possibly want in a woman ( well above and beyond simply being hot). The others simply do not come close. As for Gwen, I also do not think Gwen was a bigot because of Sam Bullett. Guess what she made a mistake? She also made a mistake shacking up with Norman Osborn. What happened to her? Her dad was killed, people become weak and do not use their head when tragedy strikes and manipulative people like Osborn and Bullett take advantage of it: Revolutionary Jack’s finding Gwen of White Supremacy is about as fair as Sins Past: Another cheap shot at Gwen. He needs to let Bullett go, that issue happened over half a century ago.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 02-20-2021 at 03:47 AM.

  9. #114
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I would want the marriage back before I commit to another Spider-Man run, unless like Al Ewing started writing in which case I would give it a shot no matter what happens


    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    As for Gwen, I also do not think Gwen was a bigot because of Sam Bullett. Guess what she made a mistake? She also made a mistake shacking up with Norman Osborn. What happened to her? Her dad was killed, people become weak and do not use their head when tragedy strikes and manipulative people like Osborn and Bullett take advantage of it: Revolutionary Jack’s finding Gwen of White Supremacy is about as fair as Sins Past: Another cheap shot at Gwen. He needs to let Bullett go, that issue happened over half a century ago.
    I didn't read the issue in question, but out of curiosity I read Bullett's character wiki and it mentions he recruits Gwen in a campaign against Spider-Man. Considering her father's death, it's easy to imagine why she'd be vulnerable to being taken in by him as anti-Spider-Man would be her main concern. Is she aware of anything else shady about him and still 100% behind him, or is that just an assumption because MJ>Gwen?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I would want the marriage back before I commit to another Spider-Man run, unless like Al Ewing started writing in which case I would give it a shot no matter what happens




    I didn't read the issue in question, but out of curiosity I read Bullett's character wiki and it mentions he recruits Gwen in a campaign against Spider-Man. Considering her father's death, it's easy to imagine why she'd be vulnerable to being taken in by him as anti-Spider-Man would be her main concern. Is she aware of anything else shady about him and still 100% behind him, or is that just an assumption because MJ>Gwen?
    I am of the opinion that she was taken in by Bullett. If there is anything about Sins Past that was good ( and that is stretching things), it shows that her mind was not altogether there, so just like Norman, Bullett got to her. If you go back to the issues, there was the cover that says ďFirst Jamison, then Gwen and now the entire city is against me.Ē Now I also know the argument that this was Peterís mind set, but it was not wrong. Why? Many people thanks to Bullett were against Spider-Man ( not just Gwen). Even MJ was against him when she said to Gwen in a Prowler issue ďYou can have himĒ ( referring to Peter).

  11. #116
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I admit Revolutionary Jack knows Spider-Man better then me ( I admitted it), I am also a hard core MJ supporter. But I am not anti Gwen. I believe MJ as the best choice based on MJ herself, not on any weakness of Felicia, Gwen or with the exception of Cindy anyone else. Saying choose MJ because the others suck or looking to poke holes in a character is weakening the case for MJ. Basically she is the least negative option not the best woman. I consider MJ the best and so far superior choice, because she ( when written well ) brings to the table everything you could possibly want in a woman ( well above and beyond simply being hot). The others simply do not come close. As for Gwen, I also do not think Gwen was a bigot because of Sam Bullett. Guess what she made a mistake? She also made a mistake shacking up with Norman Osborn. What happened to her? Her dad was killed, people become weak and do not use their head when tragedy strikes and manipulative people like Osborn and Bullett take advantage of it: Revolutionary Jack’s finding Gwen of White Supremacy is about as fair as Sins Past: Another cheap shot at Gwen. He needs to let Bullett go, that issue happened over half a century ago.
    Bravo, thank you, I don't mind people making a case for their favorite character or love interest. What I don't like or approve of is tearing other characters down to prop up one's favorite(s). I'll never understand the need for such meanspirited ultimately self-defeating (you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar as they say) tactics.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I didn't read the issue in question, but out of curiosity I read Bullett's character wiki and it mentions he recruits Gwen in a campaign against Spider-Man. Considering her father's death, it's easy to imagine why she'd be vulnerable to being taken in by him as anti-Spider-Man would be her main concern. Is she aware of anything else shady about him and still 100% behind him, or is that just an assumption because MJ>Gwen?
    The issue I tend to have is that it often feels like people treat the earlier romances as though they're filler. It's like hindsight bias. Since we know that none of those romances are going to work out, then they start to feel like a waste of time.

    I prefer MJ's romance with Peter to be something that happens rather than any sort of destiny that they have together. That's why I don't want May to be born either. Them having a daughter isn't destined to happen either.

  13. #118
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    The issue I tend to have is that it often feels like people treat the earlier romances as though they're filler. It's like hindsight bias. Since we know that none of those romances are going to work out, then they start to feel like a waste of time.

    I prefer MJ's romance with Peter to be something that happens rather than any sort of destiny that they have together. That's why I don't want May to be born either. Them having a daughter isn't destined to happen either.
    Agreed about the prior romances, but them not being destined to be together and having a daughter doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

    I don't think prior stories ever really made a point of them being "destined" to be together anyway. Just highlighted how they'd be a natural fit that the other options perhaps wouldn't be. Even if the other options bring other stuff to the table and are important for Peter's growth.

  14. #119
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    RYV didn't count, it was an alternate universe with a new Spider-Kid no one had seen before. Of course it wasn't going to sell. What If stories never do.
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  15. #120
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    The issue I tend to have is that it often feels like people treat the earlier romances as though they're filler. It's like hindsight bias. Since we know that none of those romances are going to work out, then they start to feel like a waste of time.

    I prefer MJ's romance with Peter to be something that happens rather than any sort of destiny that they have together. That's why I don't want May to be born either. Them having a daughter isn't destined to happen either.
    It's sometimes hard to get an audience invested in "new" relationships. Look what happened with Captain America and Sharon Carter in the movies.

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